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More powerful than God?

bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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5/14/2016 3:56:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2016 11:00:08 PM, scmike2 wrote:
At 5/13/2016 9:46:40 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/13/2016 8:13:23 PM, scmike2 wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

Hey Redfordnutt, it's nice to meet you! The answer to your question is 'no', as you are basically asking if God can be both 'God' (the Ultimate Authority) and also 'not God' (not the Ultimate Authority) at the same time and in the same way. Since 'omnipotent' describes a being that is 'all powerful', the ability to contradict oneself is necessarily excluded from the scope of omnipotence, since that ability does not constitute a 'power', but a 'weakness. Hope this helps!

Hello to you as well.So you are saying his omnipotence is restricted by certain things?

I'm saying that 'omnipotence' is an aspect of God's self-consistent, unchanging, eternal character and nature, and necessarily precludes the ability to engage in contradiction, since the ability to do so is mutually exclusive to being 'all powerful' (since contradicting oneself is a 'weakness').

If he can't do something he is not omnipotent.

If that 'something' equates to contradicting Himself, then you are indeed arguing the equivalent of 'if God can't be both God and not God at the same time and in the same way, then he therefore cannot be God'. It would be like me arguing that if you can't both exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way, then you therefore cannot exist. Of course, both arguments are equally absurd.

By the way i dont believe in omnipotence.

I don't believe in what you are defining as 'omnipotence' either, as the end result is irrational. I do, however, know for certain that the God of the Bible--who is omniscient, all powerful, and Soevereign--exists as the Creator of the universe and the basis for all knowledge, morality, logic, and truth. Just like everyone else (see Romans 1:18-22).

Since all people know that God exists (some just choose to suppress that truth in order to avoid accountability to Him), I would argue that you must ultimately rely upon His existence in order to even begin to formulate any argument against His existence here. Of course, such a position is self-defeating, and necessarily false. I hope this helps!
So your poor god is restricted by other human constructs, that's understandable for a human construct.
Oh btw this Since all people know that God exists is either a demonstration of your absolute ignorance or is a blatant lie.
Dogknox
Posts: 6,472
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5/14/2016 4:26:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2016 7:38:59 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/13/2016 5:47:41 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 5/13/2016 3:11:39 PM, uncung wrote:
God is everywhere... Omani Present!!

Is the god in our poop also?
uncung Jesus is "ONE" with all who eat his living flesh and drink his life giving blood!
United with Jesus we have died with him.. Never to die again!

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

uncung Satan hates you.. He hates all people!

Do you imply Jesus is ate by us? :)
Is Jesus in my poop now?

Scriptures are very clear...
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

uncung Jesus is NOT in you!!!!!
Satan hates you... You are in a very sorry position!!!

Soooo, you have to be a cannibal to go to your heaven? No, thanks.

John 6:52
Then the Jews & dhardage began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

You have to have a little faith tis all!

dhardage The Manna Moses ate for forty years kept them alive!

49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
Dogknox
Posts: 6,472
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5/14/2016 4:36:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/13/2016 9:41:51 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/13/2016 3:54:12 AM, Dogknox wrote:

Miracle of the Sun
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I already have.

I reply Great!!!
Don't forget Satan hates you!!!!

Have a good life!
Dogknox
Posts: 6,472
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5/14/2016 4:41:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 3:29:37 AM, uncung wrote:
At 5/13/2016 5:47:41 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 5/13/2016 3:11:39 PM, uncung wrote:
God is everywhere... Omani Present!!

Is the god in our poop also?
uncung Jesus is "ONE" with all who eat his living flesh and drink his life giving blood!
United with Jesus we have died with him.. Never to die again!

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

uncung Satan hates you.. He hates all people!

Do you imply Jesus is ate by us? :)
Is Jesus in my poop now?

Scriptures are very clear...
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.


uncung Jesus is NOT in you!!!!!
Satan hates you... You are in a very sorry position!!!

Have you eaten your Jesus?
YES..
uncung I believe the words of God!
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.


uncung I am Christian.. Christians have ALWAYS eaten the flesh of Jesus, becoming UNITED with our God!
LOOK...
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.
Composer
Posts: 6,182
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5/14/2016 5:33:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 4:41:35 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 5/14/2016 3:29:37 AM, uncung wrote:
At 5/13/2016 5:47:41 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 5/13/2016 3:11:39 PM, uncung wrote:
God is everywhere... Omani Present!!

Is the god in our poop also?
uncung Jesus is "ONE" with all who eat his living flesh and drink his life giving blood!
United with Jesus we have died with him.. Never to die again!

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

uncung Satan hates you.. He hates all people!

Do you imply Jesus is ate by us? :)
Is Jesus in my poop now?

Scriptures are very clear...
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.


uncung Jesus is NOT in you!!!!!
Satan hates you... You are in a very sorry position!!!

Have you eaten your Jesus?
YES..
uncung I believe the words of God!
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.


uncung I am Christian.. Christians have ALWAYS eaten the flesh of Jesus, becoming UNITED with our God!
LOOK...
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.


. . . . . . Besides I extremely abhorred the idea of eating human flesh and drinking human blood, even when they assured me that they were the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ Himself. But what troubled me most was the idea of that God, who was represented to me as being so great, so glorious, so holy, being eaten by me like a piece of common bread! . . . . . . . . Poor child! his mind, ears, eyes, nostrils are so much taken up with those new, striking and wonderful things that, while his imagination is wandering from one object to another, the moment of communion arrives, without leaving him time to think of what he is about to do! He opens his mouth, and the priest puts upon his tongue a flat thin cake of unleavened bread, which either firmly sticks to his palate or otherwise melts in his mouth, soon to go down into his stomach just like the food he takes three times a day!

The first feeling of the child, then, is that of surprise at the thought that the Creator of heaven and earth, the upholder of the universe, the Saviour of the world, could so easily pass down his throat!

Now, follow those children to their homes after that great and monstrous comedy. See their gait! Listen to their conversation and their bursts of laughter! Study their manners, their coming in, their going out, their glances of satisfaction on their fine clothes, and the vanity which they manifest in return for the congratulations they receive on their fine dresses. Notice the lightness of their actions and conversation immediately after their communion, and tell me if you find anything indicating that they believed in the terrible dogma they have been taught.

No, they have not believed in it, neither will they ever do so with the firmness of faith which is accomplished by intelligence. The poor child thinks he believes, and he sincerely tries to do so. He believes in it as much as it is possible to believe in a most monstrous and ridiculous story, opposed to the simplest notions of truth and common sense. He believes as Roman Catholics believe. He believes as an idiot believes!! (Chap. 8, 50 years in the catholic church - Charles Chiniquay)
uncung
Posts: 4,039
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5/14/2016 7:02:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 4:41:35 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 5/14/2016 3:29:37 AM, uncung wrote:
At 5/13/2016 5:47:41 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 5/13/2016 3:11:39 PM, uncung wrote:
God is everywhere... Omani Present!!

Is the god in our poop also?
uncung Jesus is "ONE" with all who eat his living flesh and drink his life giving blood!
United with Jesus we have died with him.. Never to die again!

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

uncung Satan hates you.. He hates all people!

Do you imply Jesus is ate by us? :)
Is Jesus in my poop now?

Scriptures are very clear...
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.


uncung Jesus is NOT in you!!!!!
Satan hates you... You are in a very sorry position!!!

Have you eaten your Jesus?
YES..
uncung I believe the words of God!
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.


uncung I am Christian.. Christians have ALWAYS eaten the flesh of Jesus, becoming UNITED with our God!
LOOK...
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.


How does the taste of the jesus flesh?
dsjpk5
Posts: 5,193
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5/14/2016 12:45:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 3:27:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/13/2016 10:48:09 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/13/2016 5:50:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/13/2016 1:50:07 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/12/2016 9:03:56 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 9:01:55 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

From a friend of mine:


This is a critical mistake. Omnipotence by no means entails the ability to do the logically impossible. For example, an omnipotent being couldn't create a square circle, or a married bachelor. This presents no problem to the concept of omnipotence, however, as "square circles" and "married bachelors" aren't really coherent "things". Arguing that a being is not all-powerful if that being cannot create an incoherence (i.e. a square circle) would be like arguing that a being if not all-powerful if that being cannot create "nothing". A square circle is equivalent to nothing. It has no properties. But surely "nothing" cannot be created, as "nothing" is the absence of something. So, an omnipotent being who is unable to create "nothing" (square circles, married bachelors, etc.) remains an omnipotent being.

Oh stop it! You're ruining the fun by being reasonable.

)
It's good to see that your omnipotent god is restricted by the human construct we call logic.


Actually, it is the OP who has restricted his/her ability to understand omnipotence properly by clinging to an incoherent question.
Your claim is that your god is restricted by the human construct, logic.

Not at all. I encourage you to read what I said again. I am saying that those people who ask such questions are asking incoherent questions.
MagicAintReal
Posts: 1,241
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5/14/2016 1:04:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

If omnipotence is truly having unlimited powers, then the power to remove one's omnipotence is part of that unlimited set of powers.

If god cannot get more powerful than omnipotent, then that's another power that's excluded from the unlimited power set.

If you run the "god only does that which he wants or only that which is godly" then you effectively admit he cannot do things against his will, which, you guessed it, is another power that's excluded from the unlimited power set.

Can god demonstrate his ability to do ungodly things?

If he cannot demonstrate his ability to do ungodly things, then that's another excluded power from that unlimited power set.
Dogknox
Posts: 6,472
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5/14/2016 2:38:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 7:02:44 AM, uncung wrote:
At 5/14/2016 4:41:35 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 5/14/2016 3:29:37 AM, uncung wrote:
At 5/13/2016 5:47:41 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 5/13/2016 3:11:39 PM, uncung wrote:
God is everywhere... Omani Present!!

Is the god in our poop also?
uncung Jesus is "ONE" with all who eat his living flesh and drink his life giving blood!
United with Jesus we have died with him.. Never to die again!

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

uncung Satan hates you.. He hates all people!

Do you imply Jesus is ate by us? :)
Is Jesus in my poop now?

Scriptures are very clear...
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.


uncung Jesus is NOT in you!!!!!
Satan hates you... You are in a very sorry position!!!

Have you eaten your Jesus?
YES..
uncung I believe the words of God!
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.


uncung I am Christian.. Christians have ALWAYS eaten the flesh of Jesus, becoming UNITED with our God!
LOOK...
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.


How does the taste of the jesus flesh?

uncung I hope all is well.

I reply: In the Old Testament.. God took the form of Fire, Smoke or even wind! Fact is God can take any form he wants to take because he is God, he is all powerful! In the New Testament God took the form of a Dove and a Man-" Jesus"! God can take any form he wants to take.. He also took the form of Bread & Wine!
Before Jesus left us he gave us hope that he would take the form of Bread and Wine! LOOKS..
uncung Looks as bread, tastes as bread, smells as bread would smell, even feels as bread etc.. But in fact the bread is God!

Matthew 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

1 Corinthians 11:24
and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

1 Corinthians 11: 29
For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

uncung DID YOU SEE IT? eat and drink judgment on themselves.
They condemn themselves!!!

Because you do not believe in God it does not mean there in not a God!
There is also the Devil.. Satan hates you!!
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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5/14/2016 4:36:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 12:45:52 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/14/2016 3:27:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/13/2016 10:48:09 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/13/2016 5:50:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/13/2016 1:50:07 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/12/2016 9:03:56 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 9:01:55 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

From a friend of mine:


This is a critical mistake. Omnipotence by no means entails the ability to do the logically impossible. For example, an omnipotent being couldn't create a square circle, or a married bachelor. This presents no problem to the concept of omnipotence, however, as "square circles" and "married bachelors" aren't really coherent "things". Arguing that a being is not all-powerful if that being cannot create an incoherence (i.e. a square circle) would be like arguing that a being if not all-powerful if that being cannot create "nothing". A square circle is equivalent to nothing. It has no properties. But surely "nothing" cannot be created, as "nothing" is the absence of something. So, an omnipotent being who is unable to create "nothing" (square circles, married bachelors, etc.) remains an omnipotent being.

Oh stop it! You're ruining the fun by being reasonable.

)
It's good to see that your omnipotent god is restricted by the human construct we call logic.


Actually, it is the OP who has restricted his/her ability to understand omnipotence properly by clinging to an incoherent question.
Your claim is that your god is restricted by the human construct, logic.


Not at all. I encourage you to read what I said again. I am saying that those people who ask such questions are asking incoherent questions.
No you are applying incoherent definitions.
Omnipotent=all powerful=able to do anything.
There is no set of restrictions.
Dogknox
Posts: 6,472
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5/14/2016 4:48:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 3:56:32 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/13/2016 11:00:08 PM, scmike2 wrote:
At 5/13/2016 9:46:40 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/13/2016 8:13:23 PM, scmike2 wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

Hey Redfordnutt, it's nice to meet you! The answer to your question is 'no', as you are basically asking if God can be both 'God' (the Ultimate Authority) and also 'not God' (not the Ultimate Authority) at the same time and in the same way. Since 'omnipotent' describes a being that is 'all powerful', the ability to contradict oneself is necessarily excluded from the scope of omnipotence, since that ability does not constitute a 'power', but a 'weakness. Hope this helps!

Hello to you as well.So you are saying his omnipotence is restricted by certain things?

I'm saying that 'omnipotence' is an aspect of God's self-consistent, unchanging, eternal character and nature, and necessarily precludes the ability to engage in contradiction, since the ability to do so is mutually exclusive to being 'all powerful' (since contradicting oneself is a 'weakness').

If he can't do something he is not omnipotent.

If that 'something' equates to contradicting Himself, then you are indeed arguing the equivalent of 'if God can't be both God and not God at the same time and in the same way, then he therefore cannot be God'. It would be like me arguing that if you can't both exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way, then you therefore cannot exist. Of course, both arguments are equally absurd.

By the way i dont believe in omnipotence.

I don't believe in what you are defining as 'omnipotence' either, as the end result is irrational. I do, however, know for certain that the God of the Bible--who is omniscient, all powerful, and Soevereign--exists as the Creator of the universe and the basis for all knowledge, morality, logic, and truth. Just like everyone else (see Romans 1:18-22).

Since all people know that God exists (some just choose to suppress that truth in order to avoid accountability to Him), I would argue that you must ultimately rely upon His existence in order to even begin to formulate any argument against His existence here. Of course, such a position is self-defeating, and necessarily false. I hope this helps!
So your poor god is restricted by other human constructs, that's understandable for a human construct.
Oh btw this Since all people know that God exists is either a demonstration of your absolute ignorance or is a blatant lie.

bulproof I assume you love your children.
Question: What will happen to "YOU" after your death?!!

Satan hates you, he hates all men!
scmike2
Posts: 946
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5/14/2016 5:39:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 3:56:32 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/13/2016 11:00:08 PM, scmike2 wrote:
At 5/13/2016 9:46:40 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/13/2016 8:13:23 PM, scmike2 wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

Hey Redfordnutt, it's nice to meet you! The answer to your question is 'no', as you are basically asking if God can be both 'God' (the Ultimate Authority) and also 'not God' (not the Ultimate Authority) at the same time and in the same way. Since 'omnipotent' describes a being that is 'all powerful', the ability to contradict oneself is necessarily excluded from the scope of omnipotence, since that ability does not constitute a 'power', but a 'weakness. Hope this helps!

Hello to you as well.So you are saying his omnipotence is restricted by certain things?

I'm saying that 'omnipotence' is an aspect of God's self-consistent, unchanging, eternal character and nature, and necessarily precludes the ability to engage in contradiction, since the ability to do so is mutually exclusive to being 'all powerful' (since contradicting oneself is a 'weakness').

If he can't do something he is not omnipotent.

If that 'something' equates to contradicting Himself, then you are indeed arguing the equivalent of 'if God can't be both God and not God at the same time and in the same way, then he therefore cannot be God'. It would be like me arguing that if you can't both exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way, then you therefore cannot exist. Of course, both arguments are equally absurd.

By the way i dont believe in omnipotence.

I don't believe in what you are defining as 'omnipotence' either, as the end result is irrational. I do, however, know for certain that the God of the Bible--who is omniscient, all powerful, and Soevereign--exists as the Creator of the universe and the basis for all knowledge, morality, logic, and truth. Just like everyone else (see Romans 1:18-22).

Since all people know that God exists (some just choose to suppress that truth in order to avoid accountability to Him), I would argue that you must ultimately rely upon His existence in order to even begin to formulate any argument against His existence here. Of course, such a position is self-defeating, and necessarily false. I hope this helps!

So your poor god is restricted by other human constructs, that's understandable for a human construct.

Well, since you believe that logic is a human construct, then I just construct a new standard of logic that says that all of your arguments against God are fallacious. You should have no problem at all with having your position defeated that way if you truly believe what you say you do. That was easy!!

Oh btw this Since all people know that God exists is either a demonstration of your absolute ignorance or is a blatant lie.

I'll toss that argument in the rubbish pile with the other fallacious ones! Take care!!
scmike2
Posts: 946
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5/14/2016 5:58:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 1:04:46 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:
And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

If omnipotence is truly having unlimited powers, then the power to remove one's omnipotence is part of that unlimited set of powers.

If god cannot get more powerful than omnipotent, then that's another power that's excluded from the unlimited power set.

If you run the "god only does that which he wants or only that which is godly" then you effectively admit he cannot do things against his will, which, you guessed it, is another power that's excluded from the unlimited power set.

Can god demonstrate his ability to do ungodly things?

If he cannot demonstrate his ability to do ungodly things, then that's another excluded power from that unlimited power set.

The things you are describing here are not powers, but weaknesses since they each ultimately require the ability to contradicting oneself. You, like redfordnutt, are essentially positing the absurd argument that if God cannot contradict Himself by being both God and not God at the same time and in the same way, then He therefore cannot be God. If that claim were true, then it would necessarily be false. Therefore, it is false. I trust this is clearer now?
Double_R
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5/14/2016 6:20:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/11/2016 6:31:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 6:15:23 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/11/2016 5:49:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

This is the problem with most atheists. God is not a being. God is being itself.

And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

Two things. If God is not a being, why does it speak and act like one in holy Christian writ?

Because we understand God based on our experience. We cannot actually comprehend life in eternity, or the sheer being of God. Our understanding of God is limited by our personal limitations. It is like my dog. He understood us to be some form of super-dog. He interacted and viewed us according to his frame of reference. Likewise our understanding of God is limited by our fallen nature.

I am always amused when theists assert that something is incomprehensible, then proceed to explain it.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/14/2016 7:00:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 6:20:16 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 5/11/2016 6:31:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 6:15:23 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/11/2016 5:49:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

This is the problem with most atheists. God is not a being. God is being itself.

And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

Two things. If God is not a being, why does it speak and act like one in holy Christian writ?

Because we understand God based on our experience. We cannot actually comprehend life in eternity, or the sheer being of God. Our understanding of God is limited by our personal limitations. It is like my dog. He understood us to be some form of super-dog. He interacted and viewed us according to his frame of reference. Likewise our understanding of God is limited by our fallen nature.

I am always amused when theists assert that something is incomprehensible, then proceed to explain it.

God is incomprehensible. That doesn't mean that there aren't analogies or methods of gaining some level of insight - even if only incomplete and rudimentary.
dsjpk5
Posts: 5,193
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5/14/2016 7:22:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 4:36:08 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/14/2016 12:45:52 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/14/2016 3:27:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/13/2016 10:48:09 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/13/2016 5:50:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/13/2016 1:50:07 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/12/2016 9:03:56 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 9:01:55 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

From a friend of mine:


This is a critical mistake. Omnipotence by no means entails the ability to do the logically impossible. For example, an omnipotent being couldn't create a square circle, or a married bachelor. This presents no problem to the concept of omnipotence, however, as "square circles" and "married bachelors" aren't really coherent "things". Arguing that a being is not all-powerful if that being cannot create an incoherence (i.e. a square circle) would be like arguing that a being if not all-powerful if that being cannot create "nothing". A square circle is equivalent to nothing. It has no properties. But surely "nothing" cannot be created, as "nothing" is the absence of something. So, an omnipotent being who is unable to create "nothing" (square circles, married bachelors, etc.) remains an omnipotent being.

Oh stop it! You're ruining the fun by being reasonable.

)
It's good to see that your omnipotent god is restricted by the human construct we call logic.


Actually, it is the OP who has restricted his/her ability to understand omnipotence properly by clinging to an incoherent question.
Your claim is that your god is restricted by the human construct, logic.


Not at all. I encourage you to read what I said again. I am saying that those people who ask such questions are asking incoherent questions.
No you are applying incoherent definitions.
Omnipotent=all powerful=able to do anything.
There is no set of restrictions.

Historically yes there are. It is YOU who has invented an unhistorical definition.
Osman35
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5/14/2016 9:35:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
T h e F o u r t h
The creation of Paradise is as easy as that of the spring in relation to the All-Powerful One"s power, who administers the universe with acts that are plain to see. The creation of spring is as easy as that of a flower. The loveliness of a flower"s art and the fineness in its creation may be as beautiful and valuable as the spring. The mystery of this truth is threefold:
First: the necessity and total detachment of the Maker.

Second: the complete otherness of His essence and His unrestrictedness.

Third: His not being bound by space and His indivisibility.

First Mystery: The fact that necessity and total detachment give rise to infinite ease and facility is an extremely profound mystery. We shall facilitate understanding of it with the following comparison:

The degrees of existence are different. And the worlds of existence are all different. Because they are all different, a particle from a level of existence that is deeply rooted in existence is as great as a mountain from a less substantial level; it contains the mountain.

For example, the faculty of memory, which is the size of a mustard-seed in a head from the Manifest World, takes on an existence the size of a library from the World of Meaning. And a mirror the size of a fingernail
from the external world encompasses a mighty city from the level of the World of Similitudes. If the memory and the mirror from the external world had possessed consciousness and creative power, they would have been able to bring about endless transformations and activity in the Worlds of Meaning and Similitudes through the power of their minute existences in the external world. That is to say, when existence is firmly established, power increases; what is only a little becomes much. Especially if having acquired complete stability existence is disengaged and detached from materiality and is not restricted, only a partial manifestation of it will be able to transform many worlds of other less substantial levels of existence.

Thus, "And God"s is the highest similitude,"(16:60) the universe"s Glorious Maker is Necessarily Existent. That is, His existence is essential, it is pre-eternal and post-eternal, its non-existence is impossible, its cessation is impossible; it is the most firmly rooted, the most sound, the strongest, and the most perfect of the levels of existence. In relation to His existence, the other levels of existence are like extremely pale shadows.

The degree of Necessary Existence is so stable and real, and contingent existence is so insubstantial and pale that many of those who have investigated creation, such as Muhyi al-Din al-"Arabi, have relegated the other levels of existence to the level of delusion and imagination; they said: "There is no existent save Him." That is, things should not be ascribed existence relatively to the Necessary Existence. They asserted that they do not deserve to be called existent.
Thus, for the Necessarily Existent One"s power, which is both necessary and essential, contingent beings" both created and accidental existences and both unstable and powerless realities are infinitely easy and simple. To raise all human beings to life and then judge them at the Great Gathering is as easy as resurrecting leaves, flowers and fruits in the spring, indeed, in a garden, or on a tree.

... From the risale-i Nur collection
...source: risale-i nur collection
MagicAintReal
Posts: 1,241
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5/14/2016 10:09:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No you've just highlighted the inherent problem with omnipotence. It claims unlimited power, and it appears that my definition of unlimited is just more accurate than your definition of unlimited. Omnipresence cannot be, and you just proved it.
MagicAintReal
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5/14/2016 11:40:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 10:09:15 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:
No you've just highlighted the inherent problem with omnipotence. It claims unlimited power, and it appears that my definition of unlimited is just more accurate than your definition of unlimited. *Omnipresence* cannot be, and you just proved it.

I meant omnipotence, stupid auto correct.
scmike2
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5/15/2016 12:41:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/14/2016 10:09:15 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:

No you've just highlighted the inherent problem with omnipotence. It claims unlimited power, and it appears that my definition of unlimited is just more accurate than your definition of unlimited.

Not if you're positing that 'weakness' should be considered a 'power' in your definition and, thereby, contradicting yourself. If you have a rational argument you'd like to put forth, please do so. However, if all you've got is the equivalent of arguing that something must be able to be self-contradictory in order to be true, then I thank you for your time.

Omnipresence cannot be, and you just proved it.

Actually, you've just confirmed that the God of the Bible exists, by the impossibility of the contrary, via the demonstration that the opposing position (i.e. 'not God') ends in absurdity. Like I said, if you have a rational complaint to posit, feel free. Otherwise, take care.
uncung
Posts: 4,039
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5/15/2016 12:42:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
How does the taste of the jesus flesh?

uncung I hope all is well.

I reply: In the Old Testament.. God took the form of Fire, Smoke or even wind! Fact is God can take any form he wants to take because he is God, he is all powerful! In the New Testament God took the form of a Dove and a Man-" Jesus"! God can take any form he wants to take.. He also took the form of Bread & Wine!
Before Jesus left us he gave us hope that he would take the form of Bread and Wine! LOOKS..
uncung Looks as bread, tastes as bread, smells as bread would smell, even feels as bread etc.. But in fact the bread is God!

Matthew 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

1 Corinthians 11:24
and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

1 Corinthians 11: 29
For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

uncung DID YOU SEE IT? eat and drink judgment on themselves.
They condemn themselves!!!

Because you do not believe in God it does not mean there in not a God!
There is also the Devil.. Satan hates you!!

Can you elaborate it?
How do you know Satan hates you?
MagicAintReal
Posts: 1,241
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5/15/2016 12:56:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Not if you're positing that 'weakness' should be considered a 'power' in your definition and, thereby, contradicting yourself. If you have a rational argument you'd like to put forth, please do so. However, if all you've got is the equivalent of arguing that something must be able to be self-contradictory in order to be true, then I thank you for your time.

Ok, what do you think is closer to omnipotent?

1. something that literally has the power to do anything?
2. or something that has the power to do anything except destroy itself?

I'm not arguing against your god, I'm arguing that omnipotence is impossible, because of those very things that you say your omnipotence cannot do.

Is the ability to destroy oneself a power, yes or no?
If your omnipotence cannot literally do anything, then it's not omnipotent.

Why is your omnipotence restricted by your arbitrary assessment of a weakness?
If it's an ability or attribute, an omnipotence should have it.

Can your omnipotence destroy itself, yes or no?

Actually, you've just confirmed that the God of the Bible exists,

Don't care, I'm talking about omnipotence, and no, i have not confirmed anything.

by the impossibility of the contrary,

Wait...did you say impossibility?
I thought all things are possible with omnipotence, now who's being illogical?

via the demonstration that the opposing position (i.e. 'not God') ends in absurdity.

Think about why it ends in absurdity...really think about it.
It's because omnipotence would require contradictory powers, not because I'm pointing it out to you, literally that's what omnipotence is.

If you cannot accept that omnipotence is having *every* power/ability/attribute, contradictory or otherwise, then you don't really think that your omnipotence is omnipotent.

Try this thought experiment.

I have two beings, both are alleged to be omnipotent.

Omnipotence A has no restrictions to their powers, none.
Omnipotence B can only do things that they want to do or that do not contradict their powers.

Which one is closer to omnipotent? be honest...
Dogknox
Posts: 6,472
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5/15/2016 1:13:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2016 12:42:17 AM, uncung wrote:
How does the taste of the jesus flesh?

uncung I hope all is well.

I reply: In the Old Testament.. God took the form of Fire, Smoke or even wind! Fact is God can take any form he wants to take because he is God, he is all powerful! In the New Testament God took the form of a Dove and a Man-" Jesus"! God can take any form he wants to take.. He also took the form of Bread & Wine!
Before Jesus left us he gave us hope that he would take the form of Bread and Wine! LOOKS..
uncung Looks as bread, tastes as bread, smells as bread would smell, even feels as bread etc.. But in fact the bread is God!

Matthew 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

1 Corinthians 11:24
and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

1 Corinthians 11: 29
For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

uncung DID YOU SEE IT? eat and drink judgment on themselves.
They condemn themselves!!!

Because you do not believe in God it does not mean there in not a God!
There is also the Devil.. Satan hates you!!

Can you elaborate it?
How do you know Satan hates you?

God is LOVE!
God would never be in Gehenna! Love cannot be found in Gehenna!
Satan cannot love.. He has been judged already! What little he might have had was taken away! He is pure Hate, God is pure love!

uncung Satan hates all people because God made all in God image!!! Only man has the ability to hate or love!!! If you end up in Gehenna then it is because you CHOOSE not to love!
All in Gehenna have only Hate they are "Children Of Satan!"
scmike2
Posts: 946
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5/15/2016 2:33:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2016 12:56:36 AM, MagicAintReal wrote:
Not if you're positing that 'weakness' should be considered a 'power' in your definition and, thereby, contradicting yourself. If you have a rational argument you'd like to put forth, please do so. However, if all you've got is the equivalent of arguing that something must be able to be self-contradictory in order to be true, then I thank you for your time.

Ok, what do you think is closer to omnipotent?

1. something that literally has the power to do anything?
2. or something that has the power to do anything except destroy itself?

With due respect, I'm not interested in discussing what we each 'think' to be the case here, but what we 'know for certain' to be the case here. I have shown you twice why what you are positing is not rational and is therefore, false.

I'm not arguing against your god, I'm arguing that omnipotence is impossible, because of those very things that you say your omnipotence cannot do.

If you'd like to demonstrate how the ability to be both 'God' and 'not God' is not a weakness (especially given that 'not God' is necessarily a weaker/lesser state than that of 'God'), then the floor is yours. I wouldn't recommend it, though.

Is the ability to destroy oneself a power, yes or no?

No. Unless you'd like to demonstrate how the ability of an 'omnipotent' (all powerful) being to become 'not omnipotent' (not all powerful at all) at the same time and in the same way is not a weakness but a power. The floor is yours.....

If your omnipotence cannot literally do anything, then it's not omnipotent.

Only if you believe that 'weakness' falls under the scope of 'all power'. Again, you are free to continue to posit that contradiction as your position if you'd like, but it certainly isn't helping your cause any. I am OK with that.

Why is your omnipotence restricted by your arbitrary assessment of a weakness?

Nothing arbitrary about it, as God has revealed the scope of 'omnipotence' such that we can be certain of it. Surely you don't deny that an omnipotent, omniscient God could reveal things to mankind such that we can be certain of them, do you?

In fact, if you disagree and want to demonstrate how 'not God' is not a weaker/lesser state than that of 'God', be my guest. You won't be able to, but the exercise might prove beneficial to helping you honestly think through this issue.

If it's an ability or attribute, an omnipotence should have it.

Why should this absolutely be the case and says who? Please prove this, otherwise thank you for YOUR opinion.

Can your omnipotence destroy itself, yes or no?

Nope, as that would necessarily render it 'not omnipotence' (which is necessarily a weaker state than that of omnipotence and is mutually exclusive to the definition of being 'all powerful'). Again, if you disagree with the claim that 'not omnipotent' is necessarily a weaker state than 'omnipotent', feel free to state your case. Again, I don't recommend it.

Actually, you've just confirmed that the God of the Bible exists,

Don't care, I'm talking about omnipotence, and no, i have not confirmed anything.

You've confirmed that the contrary position is absurd and cannot be rationally defended.
i mean, if a self-defeating argument to suppport your case is all you've got, what else could that possibly mean for your position here?

by the impossibility of the contrary,

Wait...did you say impossibility?
I thought all things are possible with omnipotence, now who's being illogical?

Still just you. Again, if you have something objectively verifiable and consistent with the laws of logic that you would like to posit as an argument, then please do. Otherwise, I thank you for your time, as, again, I am not interested in discussing the things you 'think' are the case, but what you know for certain to be the case with regards to this topic.

via the demonstration that the opposing position (i.e. 'not God') ends in absurdity.

Think about why it ends in absurdity...really think about it.

Done. It's because of the internal inconsistency and inherent irrationality of the (i.e. your) position that something must be self-contradictory in order to truly exist in reality. If you don't see the problem with asserting that, then I'm not sure there's much I can do for you.

It's because omnipotence would require contradictory powers, not because I'm pointing it out to you, literally that's what omnipotence is.

Why is that absolutely the case and how do you know? Couldn't you be completely wrong in universally asserting that that definition holds true in all places and at all times, given your limited observations and experience of the universe?

If you cannot accept that omnipotence is having *every* power/ability/attribute, contradictory or otherwise, then you don't really think that your omnipotence is omnipotent.

Again, this is just another variation of you asserting that in order for God to exist, He must be able to be both God and not God at the same time and in the sme way. With due respect, it shouldn't be too hard for folks to see which of us is engaging in absurdity here and which of us is not.

Also, your claim contains the unproven assumption that that ALL 'abilities' equate to 'powers'. What is the basis for that unproven assumption in your worldview?

Try this thought experiment.

I have two beings, both are alleged to be omnipotent.

Omnipotence A has no restrictions to their powers, none.
Omnipotence B can only do things that they want to do or that do not contradict their powers.

Which one is closer to omnipotent? be honest...

In your worldview, neither, since you are asserting that 'weaknesnesses' (i.e.'contradictions') also qualify as 'powers', which is incoherent and irrational. Again, I trust I don't have to explain how the absurdity of that position supports the argument that Christianity is true by the impossibility of the contrary.

By the way, it should not be missed that this entire discussion assumes that we can both recognize and know for certain what omnipotence really is in the first place. As a Christian, I can know for certain what it is (and what it is not) based upon God's revelation to mankind of Himself in the Bible. How is it possible for you to know things (such as the true meaning and scope of omnipotence, for instance) with certainty in a worldview which denies the existence of God and the possibility of Divine revelation?
MagicAintReal
Posts: 1,241
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5/15/2016 5:32:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
With due respect, I'm not interested in discussing what we each 'think' to be the case here, but what we 'know for certain' to be the case here. I have shown you twice why what you are positing is not rational and is therefore, false.

With due respect, I'm not interested in assertions, and you have not shown even once why what I'm posting is not rational.

You've just made your own version of omnipotence to retrofit your god...making excuses for inadequacies in your version of omnipotence...it's desperate.
Omnipotence is not debatable.
Omni - all
Potence - powerful

Either something can be ALL powerful, or it can't, and since you've admitted that your god cannot reach a power beyond himself, therefore your god cannot have ALL powers, thus is not ALL powerful.

If you'd like to demonstrate how the *ability* to be both 'God' and 'not God' is not a weakness (especially given that 'not God' is necessarily a weaker/lesser state than that of 'God'), then the floor is yours. I wouldn't recommend it, though.

The ability to be both god and not god is exactly how you put it, an ability.
You've also admitted that god does not have this ability.
So, by your own self admission, being god and not god is an ability and god doesn't have it.
Is not having an abilioty part of omnipotent?
Be honest here.

If you use the prefix "omni" it's not a prefix subject to gradation, it literally means ALL or EVERY.
If god does not have the ability, as you clearly put it, to be both god and not god, then it is irrelevant if you call it a weakness; you've admitted that it's an ability and that god lacks it.

No. Unless you'd like to demonstrate how the *ability* of an 'omnipotent' (all powerful) being to become 'not omnipotent' (not all powerful at all) at the same time and in the same way is not a weakness but a power. The floor is yours.....

You did it for me.
You just said AGAIN that becoming not omnipotent is an ability.
Does your "all ability" god lack this ability?
If the answer is yes, then check and mate; how can something with ALL powers lack ability?

Only if you believe that 'weakness' falls under the scope of 'all power'. Again, you are free to continue to posit that contradiction as your position if you'd like, but it certainly isn't helping your cause any. I am OK with that.

Even if an ability is considered a weakness, it's still an ability.
Does god have the ability to demonstrate his own confusion?

Demonstrating things is an ability, not a weakness, and if your god cannot demonstrate his confusion, because he can't be confused, then by definition, we have found an ability, demonstrating things, which is not a weakness, that your omnipotence does not have.

Nothing arbitrary about it, as God has revealed the scope of 'omnipotence' such that we can be certain of it. Surely you don't deny that an omnipotent, omniscient God could reveal things to mankind such that we can be certain of them, do you?

If he's truly omnipotent, he should be able to do anything, but by revealing things to mankind, he then no longer has the ability to remain incomprehensible.
Remaining incomprehensible is an ability all omnipotences should have.

In fact, if you disagree and want to demonstrate how 'not God' is not a weaker/lesser state than that of 'God', be my guest. You won't be able to, but the exercise might prove beneficial to helping you honestly think through this issue.

Well, you've already admitted that god cannot destroy himself, so "not god" can destroy god.
That's an ability that "not god" would have and "god" would not have.
Now not god doesn't seem so lesser/weaker, does he?

Why should this absolutely be the case and says who? Please prove this, otherwise thank you for YOUR opinion.

omnipotent - having unlimited power; able to do anything.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...

Unlimited, means it has no limits, yet you say that god is limited to only godly things.
Unlimited =/= can't do something
Able to do anything =/= not able to do something

Funny, no mention of weakness or strength in those definitions...

Nope, as that would necessarily render it 'not omnipotence' (which is necessarily a weaker state than that of omnipotence and is mutually exclusive to the definition of being 'all powerful'). Again, if you disagree with the claim that 'not omnipotent' is necessarily a weaker state than 'omnipotent', feel free to state your case. Again, I don't recommend it.

Not omnipotent is the state you've described as your god.
Has he the ability to become more powerful than he his, does he have the ability to progress?
No?
Then he only has the ability to remain at his plateau of power, and he cannot increase his power.
Is increasing your power a weakness?
God can't do it either way, he's not omnipotent.

You've confirmed that the contrary position is absurd and cannot be rationally defended.

I've confirmed that sans the ability to increase one's power, one is not omnipotent, because they lack the power to increase their power.

i mean, if a self-defeating argument to suppport your case is all you've got, what else could that possibly mean for your position here?

This is why you're missing the point.
Omnipotence is itself self refuting.

Still just you. Again, if you have something objectively verifiable and consistent with the laws of logic that you would like to posit as an argument, then please do.

You mentioned that there are things impossible for god to do.
How do you reconcile calling a being that has things that are impossible for it to do omnipotent?

Done. It's because of the internal inconsistency and inherent irrationality of the (i.e. your) position that something must be self-contradictory in order to truly exist in reality.

No.
Something must have the ability to do things counter to itself if it is truly omnipotent, because ALL powers is a totality set...ALL powers.

Why is that absolutely the case and how do you know?

omni = all
potent = powerful
This is how I know...I understand what ALL means.

Couldn't you be completely wrong in universally asserting that that definition holds true in all places and at all times, given your limited observations and experience of the universe?

You religious folk are the ones who made up the bogus term "omnipotent," you tell me.
I think it's a bunch of crap because of its obvious self-refutation, you claim it's the case, not me.

Again, this is just another variation of you asserting that in order for God to exist, He must be able to be both God and not God at the same time and in the sme way.

Yeah, it's like I understand how to apply the term ALL...

With due respect, it shouldn't be too hard for folks to see which of us is engaging in absurdity here and which of us is not.

If you found this absurd, it's because ALL POWERFUL is absurd...the answer is right in front of your face.

Also, your claim contains the unproven assumption that that ALL 'abilities' equate to 'powers'.

Name something that is an ability that is not a power.
Name something that is a power that is not an ability.

My worldview is irrelevant here.
Omnipotence is a semantic nightmare, and you're the one asserting that it exists/is possible.

It's like you're saying, "Hey, my god is omnipotent, but he doesn't have every ability...he can't increase his power, he can't remain incomprehensible, and he cannot destroy himself."

How many things can this omnipotent being not do?
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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5/15/2016 6:27:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/15/2016 12:41:12 AM, scmike2 wrote:
At 5/14/2016 10:09:15 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:

No you've just highlighted the inherent problem with omnipotence. It claims unlimited power, and it appears that my definition of unlimited is just more accurate than your definition of unlimited.

Not if you're positing that 'weakness' should be considered a 'power' in your definition and, thereby, contradicting yourself. If you have a rational argument you'd like to put forth, please do so. However, if all you've got is the equivalent of arguing that something must be able to be self-contradictory in order to be true, then I thank you for your time.

Omnipresence cannot be, and you just proved it.

Actually, you've just confirmed that the God of the Bible exists, by the impossibility of the contrary, via the demonstration that the opposing position (i.e. 'not God') ends in absurdity. Like I said, if you have a rational complaint to posit, feel free. Otherwise, take care.
You continue to use words like logic and rational in relation to a fictional character, those words are meaningless in relation to fictional characters.
KthulhuHimself
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5/15/2016 7:37:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/11/2016 3:32:17 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
there r things God cant do. he can do anying in the sense of "Godly" things. can God kill himself? no bcz he is eternal.

If god is atemporal, then he can't "do" anything.

If god can do things, then he is temporal, and hence isn't eternal.
KthulhuHimself
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5/15/2016 7:40:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/11/2016 5:37:17 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 5/11/2016 3:57:54 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/11/2016 3:32:17 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
there r things God cant do. he can do anying in the sense of "Godly" things. can God kill himself? no bcz he is eternal.


So that would mean God is not omnipotent and the Bible is incorrect.

sorry for not using the right words. God can do anything but wont do anything. for example God can lie its in his power but he wont do it bcz God is just honest... having the power to do it doesnt mean he gonna do it.

As I have said in the other post, god cannot be both omnipotent and eternal, as the two are contradictory.
KthulhuHimself
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5/15/2016 7:41:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/11/2016 5:49:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

This is the problem with most atheists. God is not a being. God is being itself.

If so, he doesn't have any properties and hence cannot "do" anything.
And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

Which proves that omnipotence is impossible.
KthulhuHimself
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5/15/2016 7:46:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 2:47:50 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

Satan hates you... He hates all men because we are made in the likeness of God!
All Satan can do is hate.... He cannot love, he has already been judged what little love he might have had, has been removed!

How is this relevant?
God does all things perfectly he is all powerful he is ONE!!

If god does all things perfectly, then why does cancer occur? It is a fundamental flaw in genetic repreduction, that copious amounts of suffering, that is not our fault.

And how does one whom can only do perfect things create beings that are doomed to fail?