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Christians, how do you know right from wrong?

Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/31/2016 7:13:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2016 10:39:21 PM, janesix wrote:
Do you consult your Bible when you need to make a moral decision?

Not directly no. I inform my conscience through analysis of natural law and formation of moral by biblical teachings.

What if the Bible conflicts with your conscience?

I learn why and resolve the conflict.

What do you do?

Study, like you do with anything else.

Do you go with the what you interpret the Bible to mean, or do you act according to your inner sense of right and wrong?

I don't accept my interpretation of the Bible. I conform myself to the teachings of the body that has the authority to interpret the Bible. I never find that there is any great conflict between the my morals and what is in the bible. I do find all sorts of conflict between my actions and what my morals are.

As an example, the Bible commands not to kill. Would you kill someone in order to protect yourself or your family?

Obviously because the Bible does not teach that all killing is wrong. It teaches that murder is wrong.
Casten
Posts: 2,510
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5/31/2016 7:46:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 6:59:09 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/28/2016 10:22:47 PM, Casten wrote:
I don't personally know a Christian who would not kill to protect their family, if it was absolutely necessary.

The original Hebrew clearly meant "thou shalt not murder," anyway. "Kill" is a poor translation for a modern world. There is obviously killing throughout the Bible that is meant to be taken as righteous. : :

It's impossible for any of God's people to kill anyone. They aren't the one's who produce the thoughts to do the killing. God is the one who provides all the thoughts of his people to make them do what he planned for them to do.

Amos 4
13: For lo, he who forms the mountains, and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought;

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Psalm 92
5: How great are thy works, O LORD! Thy thoughts are very deep!
6: The dull man cannot know, the stupid cannot understand this:

Sounds like you're saying God makes people do everything they do, and no one is responsible for their own actions. Gotta say, I've never met a Christian who would agree with that.
You'll always find me here: https://www.debateart.com...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 25,917
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5/31/2016 8:26:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 7:46:00 PM, Casten wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:59:09 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/28/2016 10:22:47 PM, Casten wrote:
I don't personally know a Christian who would not kill to protect their family, if it was absolutely necessary.

The original Hebrew clearly meant "thou shalt not murder," anyway. "Kill" is a poor translation for a modern world. There is obviously killing throughout the Bible that is meant to be taken as righteous. : :

It's impossible for any of God's people to kill anyone. They aren't the one's who produce the thoughts to do the killing. God is the one who provides all the thoughts of his people to make them do what he planned for them to do.

Amos 4
13: For lo, he who forms the mountains, and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought;

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Psalm 92
5: How great are thy works, O LORD! Thy thoughts are very deep!
6: The dull man cannot know, the stupid cannot understand this:

Sounds like you're saying God makes people do everything they do, and no one is responsible for their own actions. Gotta say, I've never met a Christian who would agree with that.

No, only cowards who want to blame anyone but themselves believe that.

We can choose, we can control our cravings and urges. It is not always easy, in fact often a bit like giving up smoking, but like giving up smoking (which I have done "cold turkey" it is simply a case of saying no to yourself, something far too few seem capable of doing.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,742
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5/31/2016 8:38:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 8:26:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:46:00 PM, Casten wrote:

Sounds like you're saying God makes people do everything they do, and no one is responsible for their own actions. Gotta say, I've never met a Christian who would agree with that.

No, only cowards who want to blame anyone but themselves believe that.

We can choose, we can control our cravings and urges. It is not always easy, in fact often a bit like giving up smoking, but like giving up smoking (which I have done "cold turkey" it is simply a case of saying no to yourself, something far too few seem capable of doing.

Hi, MCB. This driving notion behind this post appears inconsistent to me, and am asking this question for the sake of clarity.

(1) "We can choose, we can control our cravings and urges."
(2) "it is simply a case of saying no to yourself, something far too few seem capable of doing."

If it's a universal truth that people are capable of controlling their urges, then why do people succumb to them, even when they don't want to? There are people who have massive addictions and psychological drives that make things nigh impossible to resist, and who know and loathe said addition, knowing the pain and suffering it will bring.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 25,917
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5/31/2016 8:44:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 7:13:53 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/26/2016 10:39:21 PM, janesix wrote:
Do you consult your Bible when you need to make a moral decision?

Not directly no. I inform my conscience through analysis of natural law and formation of moral by biblical teachings.

What if the Bible conflicts with your conscience?

I learn why and resolve the conflict.

What do you do?

Study, like you do with anything else.

Do you go with the what you interpret the Bible to mean, or do you act according to your inner sense of right and wrong?

I don't accept my interpretation of the Bible. I conform myself to the teachings of the body that has the authority to interpret the Bible. I never find that there is any great conflict between the my morals and what is in the bible. I do find all sorts of conflict between my actions and what my morals are.

As an example, the Bible commands not to kill. Would you kill someone in order to protect yourself or your family?

Obviously because the Bible does not teach that all killing is wrong. It teaches that murder is wrong.

On the contrary it teaches that all killing not authorised by God is murder, including the killing of an unborn child.

It also teaches that we must love our enemy.

How does killing him or her show love to them?

No, there is no allowance for killing in the Bible especially not in self defence or the defence of our family, for that we are to rely on Jehovah's protection which includes the resurrection.

Partly of course the principle is that we are demonstrating whether we put this life above the perfect one to come.

That is why Jesus said:

New World Translation (Study Edition) Mt 10:39
39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.

NWT Reference Bible Mt 10:39
39 He that finds his soul will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it.

King James Version Mt 10:39
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

American Standard Version Mt 10:39
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Byington Mt 10:39
39 He who finds his self shall lose it, and he who loses his self on my account shall find it.

If you "find your soul" by sacrificing someone else's you will lose your eternal life.

It is that simple. No killing, rely on the resurrection.

After all, an early death is a shortcut out of this system into Jehovah's. But no cheating.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 25,917
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5/31/2016 8:50:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 7:10:59 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:01:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 5:43:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 5/31/2016 5:14:30 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 4:10:02 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:18:42 AM, JusAnoCon wrote:
It is true that, at times in the past, God called for total war against specific cities, groups, and states as judgement for the evils they had perpetrated
Provide evidence of these alleged evils, the bible isn't evidence it's the claim.

No the Bible is the evidence. It's accuracy is the proof, deny it as you do, ti is accurate and it is true.

I wish the same could be said about the entirety of translations. But no matter because the truth is still in there even if men have tried to hide it. They have failed. All they succeeded in is making it harder to find.

Are you accepting there are "Major Problems with the New World Translation"

"The Watchtower Society must have been utterly embarrassed when the names of the translators of the New World translation were made known to the public. The reason for concern was the translation committee was completely unqualified for the task. Four of the five men in the committee had no Hebrew or Greek training whatsoever (they had only a high school education)[1]. The Fifth, Fred W. Franz, claimed to know Hebrew and Greek, but upon examination under oath in a court of law in Edinburg Scotland he failed a simple Hebrew test.

In court Franz was asked if he knew Hebrew and he said yes. He said he had a command of various languages including Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, German, and French. When asked if he speaks Hebrew, he said no. He was then asked if he could translate the fourth verse of Genesis into Hebrew. His answer was NO! The fact was Franz, like the others on the committee, did not have the knowledge to translate Hebrew or Greek. The truth is Franz dropped out of the University of Cincinnati after his sophomore year and even while there, he had not studied anything related to theological issues."

In fact the main purpose of the Bible is to give us the evidence against Satan, much of it written in advance of it's actual happening.

Tbe bible only mentions Satan 53 times. It mentions YHWH 6000 times and man 3000 times. How can the bible be about the evidence against Satan when most characters in the bible are mentioned more often than Satan?
times)
David (971 times)
Moses (803 times)
Jacob (363 times)
Saul (362 times)
Aaron (342 times)
Abraham (294 times, with 57 of those being Abram)
Solomon (272 times)
Joseph (246 times)
Paul (228 times)
Joshua (219 times)
Peter (193 times)
Jeremiah (145 times)
Samuel (142 verses)
Isaac (129 times)
Joab (129 times)


Are you really so dumb you can't work that out for yourself, it should be obvious.

The bible makes it clear Satan has no power over anyone unless you give it power over you. The bible is mostly all about Jesus. All the prophesies point to Jesus. But how would a retard like you know. You suffered all your life with serious mental issues.

You wrote:" I'll never be cured. It is not that kind of problem. It is caused by problems at, and immediately after birth which prevented my brains from developing in certain ways, and therefore have caused permanent brain "damage". Unfortunately, since my Mental Health issues are actually physical problems with a brain that never had the chance to develop properly."

You wrote:" I have, as I have mentioned before, certain Mental Health issues, which have, as it turns out, been lifelong and undiagnosed despite a visit to a Psychiatrist, at my adoptive Father's behest, when I was 15. It was almost a further 35 years before it was finally discovered that I had been working under this problem for all my life.

Yes, I quite agree, and because of my weakness, exacerbating my depressive state I let him in.

The easiest way to let Satan in is to hate yourself, since hate is a fruit of Satan's spirit, and I did hate myself seriously at the time because I knew what I was doing but felt completely unable to control myself.

I prayed many times that Jehovah just switch me off, but that is one prayer that he didn't answer positively, and I am now grateful for that.

That doesn't mean Jehovah can't turf him out again if you turn to him for help. I turned to him and he helped, Simple as.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 25,917
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5/31/2016 9:02:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 8:38:27 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 5/31/2016 8:26:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:46:00 PM, Casten wrote:

Sounds like you're saying God makes people do everything they do, and no one is responsible for their own actions. Gotta say, I've never met a Christian who would agree with that.

No, only cowards who want to blame anyone but themselves believe that.

We can choose, we can control our cravings and urges. It is not always easy, in fact often a bit like giving up smoking, but like giving up smoking (which I have done "cold turkey" it is simply a case of saying no to yourself, something far too few seem capable of doing.

Hi, MCB. This driving notion behind this post appears inconsistent to me, and am asking this question for the sake of clarity.

(1) "We can choose, we can control our cravings and urges."
(2) "it is simply a case of saying no to yourself, something far too few seem capable of doing."

If it's a universal truth that people are capable of controlling their urges, then why do people succumb to them, even when they don't want to? There are people who have massive addictions and psychological drives that make things nigh impossible to resist, and who know and loathe said addition, knowing the pain and suffering it will bring.

People succumb to their urges because they don't dismiss the thoughts about them from their minds. Simple as.

The more you think about it, the more you are likely to do it.

That is the principle behind Jesus statement at Matthew 5:27, 28 which whilst it deals with adultery is also a principle which applies to everything.

27 "You heard that it was said: "You must not commit adultery." 28 But I say to you that everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The thought is father to the deed, if you keep thinking about it, you will eventually do it.

So if you want to avoid sinning avoid anything that makes you thin about it.

Simple as that, if in this world made more difficult because it bombards us with images that make these things seem OK, but they aren't. It is simply another tactic of his to pull us away from God.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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5/31/2016 9:04:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 7:03:11 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:45:44 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 5/31/2016 9:24:22 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/26/2016 10:39:21 PM, janesix wrote:
Do you consult your Bible when you need to make a moral decision?

What if the Bible conflicts with your conscience?

Then you train your conscience to fit what the Bible says.

Man, these are the kinds of responses that scare the sh!t out of me.

Evidently, but they shouldn't because mankind was created with the capacity to, ad responsibility for doing just that.

Are you really that afraid of taking responsibility for your own thoughts and actions?

I'm afraid of people like you who will cede their ability to reason about morality to an ancient book. I have no problem taking responsibility for my thoughts and actions. What you're talking about is the opposite. You're forfeiting your ability to determine right from wrong, so you can just blame the book if someone has a problem with what you do.
Harikrish
Posts: 24,094
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5/31/2016 9:04:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 8:50:40 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:10:59 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:01:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 5:43:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 5/31/2016 5:14:30 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 4:10:02 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:18:42 AM, JusAnoCon wrote:
It is true that, at times in the past, God called for total war against specific cities, groups, and states as judgement for the evils they had perpetrated
Provide evidence of these alleged evils, the bible isn't evidence it's the claim.

No the Bible is the evidence. It's accuracy is the proof, deny it as you do, ti is accurate and it is true.

I wish the same could be said about the entirety of translations. But no matter because the truth is still in there even if men have tried to hide it. They have failed. All they succeeded in is making it harder to find.

Are you accepting there are "Major Problems with the New World Translation"

"The Watchtower Society must have been utterly embarrassed when the names of the translators of the New World translation were made known to the public. The reason for concern was the translation committee was completely unqualified for the task. Four of the five men in the committee had no Hebrew or Greek training whatsoever (they had only a high school education)[1]. The Fifth, Fred W. Franz, claimed to know Hebrew and Greek, but upon examination under oath in a court of law in Edinburg Scotland he failed a simple Hebrew test.

In court Franz was asked if he knew Hebrew and he said yes. He said he had a command of various languages including Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Spanish, German, and French. When asked if he speaks Hebrew, he said no. He was then asked if he could translate the fourth verse of Genesis into Hebrew. His answer was NO! The fact was Franz, like the others on the committee, did not have the knowledge to translate Hebrew or Greek. The truth is Franz dropped out of the University of Cincinnati after his sophomore year and even while there, he had not studied anything related to theological issues."

In fact the main purpose of the Bible is to give us the evidence against Satan, much of it written in advance of it's actual happening.

Tbe bible only mentions Satan 53 times. It mentions YHWH 6000 times and man 3000 times. How can the bible be about the evidence against Satan when most characters in the bible are mentioned more often than Satan?
times)
David (971 times)
Moses (803 times)
Jacob (363 times)
Saul (362 times)
Aaron (342 times)
Abraham (294 times, with 57 of those being Abram)
Solomon (272 times)
Joseph (246 times)
Paul (228 times)
Joshua (219 times)
Peter (193 times)
Jeremiah (145 times)
Samuel (142 verses)
Isaac (129 times)
Joab (129 times)


Are you really so dumb you can't work that out for yourself, it should be obvious.

The bible makes it clear Satan has no power over anyone unless you give it power over you. The bible is mostly all about Jesus. All the prophesies point to Jesus. But how would a retard like you know. You suffered all your life with serious mental issues.

You wrote:" I'll never be cured. It is not that kind of problem. It is caused by problems at, and immediately after birth which prevented my brains from developing in certain ways, and therefore have caused permanent brain "damage". Unfortunately, since my Mental Health issues are actually physical problems with a brain that never had the chance to develop properly."

You wrote:" I have, as I have mentioned before, certain Mental Health issues, which have, as it turns out, been lifelong and undiagnosed despite a visit to a Psychiatrist, at my adoptive Father's behest, when I was 15. It was almost a further 35 years before it was finally discovered that I had been working under this problem for all my life.

Yes, I quite agree, and because of my weakness, exacerbating my depressive state I let him in.

The easiest way to let Satan in is to hate yourself, since hate is a fruit of Satan's spirit, and I did hate myself seriously at the time because I knew what I was doing but felt completely unable to control myself.

I prayed many times that Jehovah just switch me off, but that is one prayer that he didn't answer positively, and I am now grateful for that.

That doesn't mean Jehovah can't turf him out again if you turn to him for help. I turned to him and he helped, Simple as.

All Jehovah did was replace human love with a dog. Because your wives had choices and chose to leave you, He gave you a dog with no choices so it won't leave you no matter how perverted you get with it.
I don't think there are too many happy families who will trade all that love to live alone with a dog. But that's your Jehovah, who are we to judge?
It almost seems your underdeveloped brain is better suited or matched with that of canines/dogs. Took a Jehovah to figure that out and left those psychiatrists scratching their heads.
simplelife
Posts: 134
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5/31/2016 9:09:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 7:46:00 PM, Casten wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:59:09 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 5/28/2016 10:22:47 PM, Casten wrote:
I don't personally know a Christian who would not kill to protect their family, if it was absolutely necessary.

The original Hebrew clearly meant "thou shalt not murder," anyway. "Kill" is a poor translation for a modern world. There is obviously killing throughout the Bible that is meant to be taken as righteous. : :

It's impossible for any of God's people to kill anyone. They aren't the one's who produce the thoughts to do the killing. God is the one who provides all the thoughts of his people to make them do what he planned for them to do.

Amos 4
13: For lo, he who forms the mountains, and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought;

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Psalm 92
5: How great are thy works, O LORD! Thy thoughts are very deep!
6: The dull man cannot know, the stupid cannot understand this:

Sounds like you're saying God makes people do everything they do, and no one is responsible for their own actions. Gotta say, I've never met a Christian who would agree with that. : :

I'm not a Christian. I am the source where you get your thoughts from called my servant David.

Ezekiel 34
22: I will save my flock, they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep.
23: And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd.
24: And I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them; I, the LORD, have spoken.
DiEgO123100
Posts: 49
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5/31/2016 9:54:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2016 11:51:55 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Good luck trying to get a straight answer from them without a bunch of double talk and evasion.

Straight up. Our conscience. You feel what's right and what's wrong. Now shut up and go educate yourself instead of assuming bull crap.
matt8800
Posts: 2,773
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6/1/2016 2:33:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 8:59:46 AM, JusAnoCon wrote:
At 5/29/2016 7:29:59 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:18:42 AM, JusAnoCon wrote:
It is true that, at times in the past, God called for total war against specific cities, groups, and states as judgement for the evils they had perpetrated. But these calls to war had a set limit; they were enacted only against specific targets, and the call ended when the target was destroyed. As such, the Bible does not call those of us alive today to engage in any such actions. All such wars ended more than two thousand years ago. God alone would be able to call us to such action again, and Christ, who is God, has made it clear that he will not; and no such call to action is given in the teachings of Christ or the writings of the Apostles.

As to your accusation that rape is condoned by Scripture, I challenge you to find an instance where that is true. Forcing oneself upon another sexually is never an action approved of in any form that I have found in over 12 years of study in the Scripture, and I am constantly baffled by people who think it is. Perhaps, if you could find such an instance, I'd gladly take a critical look at it.

Fair enough.

Numbers 31:17-18 "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Lets look at 2 different scenarios:

1. Israelites invade neighboring peoples, kill all the males and females that have ever slept with a man. The invading men take the virgins for themselves. (note: Since many girls married soon after they are sexually mature in those days, most virgins would probably be considered around 13 years old or younger).

2. US troops invade Afghanistan, kill all the males and females that have ever slept with a man. The invading men take the virgins for themselves. (Since girls marry very young in that culture, many virgins would be somewhere around 13-15ish)

Would you say that both, one or neither scenarios are immoral?

Clarification: Is this a supposed example of rape, or are you trying to challenge something else, unrelated to how Christians know what is right and wrong? Because, of the examples you've given, neither is substantive in the former case. Capture is, after all, not rape; not even implicitly. And in the latter case, I have quite succinctly answered the question posed by this thread already, and I don't see how this changes the answer I gave.

I never used the word rape. It is interesting that you assumed a story of men kidnapping virgins would contain rape yet you felt it necessary to mention they might not have been raped. There is a reason that we assume when men only spare the women and kidnap them they also rape them.

Can you name one prominent historian that says a civilization kidnapped women in war and didn't rape them as a practice?

What makes you think they would be morally opposed to rape when they killed all the small boys, the elderly and the sick?

Can you finish the following sentence?:

It is immoral to kill innocent non-combatants in war and kidnap the virgin daughters for your own use, except when ______________________________________.
matt8800
Posts: 2,773
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6/1/2016 2:40:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 9:54:50 PM, DiEgO123100 wrote:
At 5/26/2016 11:51:55 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Good luck trying to get a straight answer from them without a bunch of double talk and evasion.

Straight up. Our conscience. You feel what's right and what's wrong. Now shut up and go educate yourself instead of assuming bull crap.

I agree but I'm surprised that a Christian wouldn't say the Bible is the source to know what is moral. In fact, it is a source of immorality.

I was speaking specifically to religious people that think their religious book is a way to know what is moral.

If you don't believe the Bible is the ultimate decider of what is moral, then why are you a Christian?
tarantula
Posts: 1,604
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6/1/2016 9:27:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 5:09:01 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 1:05:29 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 5/31/2016 9:25:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/26/2016 10:39:21 PM, janesix wrote:
Do you consult your Bible when you need to make a moral decision?

P. S.

Any true JW would do the same.

No wonder that cult screws up so very badly! There is much that is wrong in the Bible, like the behaviour attributed to the deity. It hasn't done you much good, has it MCB?

There is nothing wrong with the behaviour of God as reported in the Bible, as you would know if you looked past the surface appearance.

All too often Jehovah has had to do something because, cruel as it may appear it was the best of the options available to him.

He did not choose for mankind to take the path we have, and justice states that there is only so much he can do about it.

What we suffer we suffer either because Adam brought it on us, our parents brought it on us, or we brought it on ourselves.

Jehovah's hands are tied by his standards of justice which means Satan had to be given a chance to prove his case.


One certainly doesn't need to refer to the Bible to know right from wrong.

One shouldn't have to because one's parents should have taught us that in the first place.

Where they didn't we should have taught ourselves later on.

However in the end morality all goes back to Jehovah's teaching even long before it was written in the Bible. The Bible is the ultimate source of understanding of right and wrong available to us today.

Jehovah taught Adam, who failed him.

He also taught all the faithful men from Abel on who didn't fail him, at least no more than they could help doing.

From Abel onward he taught through his son acting as the Word.

From Moses on he taught through the Bible.

At one point he taught through his son on earth, incarnate as Jesus., and then the Apostles who added the final pages to the Bible.

The simple fact that you are happy to judge in ignorance of the truth behind things, rather than making the effort to find out is what condemns you. Mathew 7:1-5.

If you think there is nothing wrong with the behaviour attributed to the god featured in the Bible that says a lot about you, which isn't good. The deity's behaviour is that of a depraved psycho!
MadCornishBiker
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6/1/2016 11:32:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2016 9:27:36 AM, tarantula wrote:
At 5/31/2016 5:09:01 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 1:05:29 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 5/31/2016 9:25:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/26/2016 10:39:21 PM, janesix wrote:
Do you consult your Bible when you need to make a moral decision?

P. S.

Any true JW would do the same.

No wonder that cult screws up so very badly! There is much that is wrong in the Bible, like the behaviour attributed to the deity. It hasn't done you much good, has it MCB?

There is nothing wrong with the behaviour of God as reported in the Bible, as you would know if you looked past the surface appearance.

All too often Jehovah has had to do something because, cruel as it may appear it was the best of the options available to him.

He did not choose for mankind to take the path we have, and justice states that there is only so much he can do about it.

What we suffer we suffer either because Adam brought it on us, our parents brought it on us, or we brought it on ourselves.

Jehovah's hands are tied by his standards of justice which means Satan had to be given a chance to prove his case.


One certainly doesn't need to refer to the Bible to know right from wrong.

One shouldn't have to because one's parents should have taught us that in the first place.

Where they didn't we should have taught ourselves later on.

However in the end morality all goes back to Jehovah's teaching even long before it was written in the Bible. The Bible is the ultimate source of understanding of right and wrong available to us today.

Jehovah taught Adam, who failed him.

He also taught all the faithful men from Abel on who didn't fail him, at least no more than they could help doing.

From Abel onward he taught through his son acting as the Word.

From Moses on he taught through the Bible.

At one point he taught through his son on earth, incarnate as Jesus., and then the Apostles who added the final pages to the Bible.

The simple fact that you are happy to judge in ignorance of the truth behind things, rather than making the effort to find out is what condemns you. Mathew 7:1-5.

If you think there is nothing wrong with the behaviour attributed to the god featured in the Bible that says a lot about you, which isn't good. The deity's behaviour is that of a depraved psycho!

Actually what oit says about me is that I have taken the trouble to find out what is going on behind it and why it had to happen.

That says plenty of good about me and absolutely none about you.

It shows I am passionate about Justice and prepared to consider things from all angles before I judge.

You have shown yourself to be content to judge in ignorance of all the facts.

Therefore as Matthew 7:1-5 tells us, you will also be judged in ignorance, unless yu change, and I'll bet you won't like that.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
MadCornishBiker
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6/1/2016 11:35:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 9:04:37 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:03:11 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:45:44 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 5/31/2016 9:24:22 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/26/2016 10:39:21 PM, janesix wrote:
Do you consult your Bible when you need to make a moral decision?

What if the Bible conflicts with your conscience?

Then you train your conscience to fit what the Bible says.

Man, these are the kinds of responses that scare the sh!t out of me.

Evidently, but they shouldn't because mankind was created with the capacity to, ad responsibility for doing just that.

Are you really that afraid of taking responsibility for your own thoughts and actions?

I'm afraid of people like you who will cede their ability to reason about morality to an ancient book. I have no problem taking responsibility for my thoughts and actions. What you're talking about is the opposite. You're forfeiting your ability to determine right from wrong, so you can just blame the book if someone has a problem with what you do.

No I am not, because I accept that Jehovah knows more about what s right and wrong and am happy to take responsibility for how well I follow that.

Satan tempted Eve with exactly what you claim for yourselves and look at the mess that got us into when she went for it like you.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
Chaosism
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6/1/2016 12:31:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 9:02:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 8:38:27 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 5/31/2016 8:26:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:46:00 PM, Casten wrote:

Sounds like you're saying God makes people do everything they do, and no one is responsible for their own actions. Gotta say, I've never met a Christian who would agree with that.

No, only cowards who want to blame anyone but themselves believe that.

We can choose, we can control our cravings and urges. It is not always easy, in fact often a bit like giving up smoking, but like giving up smoking (which I have done "cold turkey" it is simply a case of saying no to yourself, something far too few seem capable of doing.

Hi, MCB. This driving notion behind this post appears inconsistent to me, and am asking this question for the sake of clarity.

(1) "We can choose, we can control our cravings and urges."
(2) "it is simply a case of saying no to yourself, something far too few seem capable of doing."

If it's a universal truth that people are capable of controlling their urges, then why do people succumb to them, even when they don't want to? There are people who have massive addictions and psychological drives that make things nigh impossible to resist, and who know and loathe said addition, knowing the pain and suffering it will bring.

People succumb to their urges because they don't dismiss the thoughts about them from their minds. Simple as.

The more you think about it, the more you are likely to do it.

That is the principle behind Jesus statement at Matthew 5:27, 28 which whilst it deals with adultery is also a principle which applies to everything.

27 "You heard that it was said: "You must not commit adultery." 28 But I say to you that everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The thought is father to the deed, if you keep thinking about it, you will eventually do it.

So if you want to avoid sinning avoid anything that makes you thin about it.

Simple as that, if in this world made more difficult because it bombards us with images that make these things seem OK, but they aren't. It is simply another tactic of his to pull us away from God.

What about those cases in which the source of the overwhelming impulse is identifies in one's brain chemistry? Many such cases exist, which disproves the notion that such things are simply a matter of thought. Here's a couple examples:

1. In 1966, a man by the name of Charles Whitman went on a horrid killing spree and was eventually killed. Prior to the event, he wrote (among other similar things), "I talked with a Doctor once for about two hours and tried to convey to him my fears that I felt [overcome by] overwhelming violent impulses. After one session I never saw the Doctor again, and since then I have been fighting my mental turmoil alone, and seemingly to no avail."

Following an autopsy, which was a response to a large demand for answers, they discovered a nickel-sized tumor beneath a structure called the thalamus, impinged on the hypothalamus, and compressed a third region called the amygdala, which is responsible for regulating emotion - especially fear and aggression.

2. In 2000, a man (simply referred to as Alex) suddenly began to transform into pedophilia, in an overwhelming sense. The wrote that he wanted to stop, but couldn't. This started with minor violations that grew more significant, up to making advanced on his prepubescent stepdaughter. He was found guilty of child molestation, and sentenced to rehabilitation in lieu of prison. In the rehabilitation program, he made inappropriate sexual advances toward the staff and other clients, and was expelled and routed toward prison.

At the same time, Alex was complaining of worsening headaches. The night before he was to report for prison sentencing, he couldn"t stand the pain anymore, and took himself to the emergency room. He underwent a brain scan, which revealed a massive tumor in his orbitofrontal cortex. Neurosurgeons removed the tumor. Alex"s sexual appetite returned to normal. The year after the brain surgery, his pedophilic behavior began to return. The neuroradiologist discovered that a portion of the tumor had been missed in the surgery and was regrowing"and Alex went back under the knife. After the removal of the remaining tumor, his behavior again returned to normal.

Source Article: http://www.theatlantic.com...
Related psychology article: https://www.psychologytoday.com...

What is your biblical assessment for such cases??
12_13
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6/1/2016 12:48:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/26/2016 10:39:21 PM, janesix wrote:
Do you consult your Bible when you need to make a moral decision?

I already know what the Bible tells, "love others as yourself". Quite simple. :)

What if the Bible conflicts with your conscience?

I don"t think that has not happened. More likely there could be conflict with what I want and what Bible tells is right and what my conscience also says is right.

As an example, the Bible commands not to kill. Would you kill someone in order to protect yourself or your family?

Actually it is don"t murder (that is unjust kill). Killing may be accepted in some cases.

I hope I would not murder.
MadCornishBiker
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6/1/2016 12:54:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2016 12:31:27 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 5/31/2016 9:02:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 8:38:27 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 5/31/2016 8:26:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 7:46:00 PM, Casten wrote:

Sounds like you're saying God makes people do everything they do, and no one is responsible for their own actions. Gotta say, I've never met a Christian who would agree with that.

No, only cowards who want to blame anyone but themselves believe that.

We can choose, we can control our cravings and urges. It is not always easy, in fact often a bit like giving up smoking, but like giving up smoking (which I have done "cold turkey" it is simply a case of saying no to yourself, something far too few seem capable of doing.

Hi, MCB. This driving notion behind this post appears inconsistent to me, and am asking this question for the sake of clarity.

(1) "We can choose, we can control our cravings and urges."
(2) "it is simply a case of saying no to yourself, something far too few seem capable of doing."

If it's a universal truth that people are capable of controlling their urges, then why do people succumb to them, even when they don't want to? There are people who have massive addictions and psychological drives that make things nigh impossible to resist, and who know and loathe said addition, knowing the pain and suffering it will bring.

People succumb to their urges because they don't dismiss the thoughts about them from their minds. Simple as.

The more you think about it, the more you are likely to do it.

That is the principle behind Jesus statement at Matthew 5:27, 28 which whilst it deals with adultery is also a principle which applies to everything.

27 "You heard that it was said: "You must not commit adultery." 28 But I say to you that everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The thought is father to the deed, if you keep thinking about it, you will eventually do it.

So if you want to avoid sinning avoid anything that makes you thin about it.

Simple as that, if in this world made more difficult because it bombards us with images that make these things seem OK, but they aren't. It is simply another tactic of his to pull us away from God.

What about those cases in which the source of the overwhelming impulse is identifies in one's brain chemistry? Many such cases exist, which disproves the notion that such things are simply a matter of thought. Here's a couple examples:

1. In 1966, a man by the name of Charles Whitman went on a horrid killing spree and was eventually killed. Prior to the event, he wrote (among other similar things), "I talked with a Doctor once for about two hours and tried to convey to him my fears that I felt [overcome by] overwhelming violent impulses. After one session I never saw the Doctor again, and since then I have been fighting my mental turmoil alone, and seemingly to no avail."

Following an autopsy, which was a response to a large demand for answers, they discovered a nickel-sized tumor beneath a structure called the thalamus, impinged on the hypothalamus, and compressed a third region called the amygdala, which is responsible for regulating emotion - especially fear and aggression.

2. In 2000, a man (simply referred to as Alex) suddenly began to transform into pedophilia, in an overwhelming sense. The wrote that he wanted to stop, but couldn't. This started with minor violations that grew more significant, up to making advanced on his prepubescent stepdaughter. He was found guilty of child molestation, and sentenced to rehabilitation in lieu of prison. In the rehabilitation program, he made inappropriate sexual advances toward the staff and other clients, and was expelled and routed toward prison.

At the same time, Alex was complaining of worsening headaches. The night before he was to report for prison sentencing, he couldn"t stand the pain anymore, and took himself to the emergency room. He underwent a brain scan, which revealed a massive tumor in his orbitofrontal cortex. Neurosurgeons removed the tumor. Alex"s sexual appetite returned to normal. The year after the brain surgery, his pedophilic behavior began to return. The neuroradiologist discovered that a portion of the tumor had been missed in the surgery and was regrowing"and Alex went back under the knife. After the removal of the remaining tumor, his behavior again returned to normal.

Source Article: http://www.theatlantic.com...
Related psychology article: https://www.psychologytoday.com...

What is your biblical assessment for such cases??

I would echo Paul's words:

Philippians 4:13 For all things I have the strength by virtue of him who imparts power to me.

As I have learned to my cost. If we rely fully on Jehovah and all his arrangements we can overcome any impulses or obsessions.

It took me longer to learn that I wasn't doing that when I thought I was than it did to learn abut it's possibilities.

Now I have learned to do so properly my life is back under control.

I am sure, from my own experiences, that had Alex turned to the true God, and relied on him and all his arrangements fully, he would have beaten his impulses.

I am not saying it would have been easy, it certainly wasn't in my case, and his was more extreme, but I now know for certain that it is possible.

That is where real faith comes in, as Abraham learned to his, and our ongoing, cost. If he had shown faith in Jehovah in the instance of the promise of a child he would never have tried to move ahead of Jehovah by having Ishmael with Hagar, and we would not have Islam of IS today.

He learned by his error, so should we. Always trust Jehovah in all situations.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
MadCornishBiker
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6/1/2016 12:56:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2016 12:48:03 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 5/26/2016 10:39:21 PM, janesix wrote:
Do you consult your Bible when you need to make a moral decision?

I already know what the Bible tells, "love others as yourself". Quite simple. :)

Simple to say, not so simple to do or everyone would be doing it.


What if the Bible conflicts with your conscience?

I don"t think that has not happened. More likely there could be conflict with what I want and what Bible tells is right and what my conscience also says is right.

As an example, the Bible commands not to kill. Would you kill someone in order to protect yourself or your family?

Actually it is don"t murder (that is unjust kill). Killing may be accepted in some cases.

I hope I would not murder.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,742
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6/1/2016 1:27:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2016 12:54:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

I would echo Paul's words:

Philippians 4:13 For all things I have the strength by virtue of him who imparts power to me.

As I have learned to my cost. If we rely fully on Jehovah and all his arrangements we can overcome any impulses or obsessions.

It took me longer to learn that I wasn't doing that when I thought I was than it did to learn abut it's possibilities.

Now I have learned to do so properly my life is back under control.

I am sure, from my own experiences, that had Alex turned to the true God, and relied on him and all his arrangements fully, he would have beaten his impulses.

I am not saying it would have been easy, it certainly wasn't in my case, and his was more extreme, but I now know for certain that it is possible.

That is where real faith comes in, as Abraham learned to his, and our ongoing, cost. If he had shown faith in Jehovah in the instance of the promise of a child he would never have tried to move ahead of Jehovah by having Ishmael with Hagar, and we would not have Islam of IS today.

He learned by his error, so should we. Always trust Jehovah in all situations.

So, you don't believe that such truly overwhelming urges exist? You don't believe that brain deficiencies can cause behaviors to emerge despite the victims convictions?

Since you have previously expressed that you believe humans aren't capable of such evils on their own, is Satan responsible for those tumors?

Some people have brain deficiencies that prevent them from acting coherently at all, and turn them into psychotic individuals with no remorse. They literally have no capacity for it and, as such, would be incapable of perceiving a reason to turn to Jehovah. What of these people?
MadCornishBiker
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6/1/2016 1:48:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2016 1:27:11 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 6/1/2016 12:54:50 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

I would echo Paul's words:

Philippians 4:13 For all things I have the strength by virtue of him who imparts power to me.

As I have learned to my cost. If we rely fully on Jehovah and all his arrangements we can overcome any impulses or obsessions.

It took me longer to learn that I wasn't doing that when I thought I was than it did to learn abut it's possibilities.

Now I have learned to do so properly my life is back under control.

I am sure, from my own experiences, that had Alex turned to the true God, and relied on him and all his arrangements fully, he would have beaten his impulses.

I am not saying it would have been easy, it certainly wasn't in my case, and his was more extreme, but I now know for certain that it is possible.

That is where real faith comes in, as Abraham learned to his, and our ongoing, cost. If he had shown faith in Jehovah in the instance of the promise of a child he would never have tried to move ahead of Jehovah by having Ishmael with Hagar, and we would not have Islam of IS today.

He learned by his error, so should we. Always trust Jehovah in all situations.

So, you don't believe that such truly overwhelming urges exist? You don't believe that brain deficiencies can cause behaviours to emerge despite the victims convictions?

Of course I do, that is why we need the extra strength that Jehovah can and does provide, because otherwise these things would overwhelm us, as they did me.

That is in fact my point.


Since you have previously expressed that you believe humans aren't capable of such evils on their own, is Satan responsible for those tumors?

He is responsible for all the human imperfections we have inherited from Adam.


Some people have brain deficiencies that prevent them from acting coherently at all, and turn them into psychotic individuals with no remorse. They literally have no capacity for it and, as such, would be incapable of perceiving a reason to turn to Jehovah. What of these people?

That is a good question, but I have to admit that I cannot see Jehovah letting them miss out over that. He could after all implant the desire in their minds and hope they acted on it, and I am sure he would do.

At the worst they may have to wait for the resurrection, which is, in effect, Jehovah's fail safe arrangement.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
Chaosism
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6/1/2016 2:02:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2016 1:48:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/1/2016 1:27:11 PM, Chaosism wrote:
So, you don't believe that such truly overwhelming urges exist? You don't believe that brain deficiencies can cause behaviours to emerge despite the victims convictions?

Of course I do, that is why we need the extra strength that Jehovah can and does provide, because otherwise these things would overwhelm us, as they did me.

That is in fact my point.

So, in the cases presented previously, would Jehovah have addressed the physical ailment of the tumor? And if so, why did He not do so with these people who were evidently aware that something was wrong and sought being relieved of their ailments?

Since you have previously expressed that you believe humans aren't capable of such evils on their own, is Satan responsible for those tumors?

He is responsible for all the human imperfections we have inherited from Adam.

1. Even Adam's capacity to disobey God?

2. Did God create Satan?

Some people have brain deficiencies that prevent them from acting coherently at all, and turn them into psychotic individuals with no remorse. They literally have no capacity for it and, as such, would be incapable of perceiving a reason to turn to Jehovah. What of these people?

That is a good question, but I have to admit that I cannot see Jehovah letting them miss out over that. He could after all implant the desire in their minds and hope they acted on it, and I am sure he would do.

You've previously expressed that Jehovah would not violate one's privacy and intervene without the individuals permission, so what of these people that have not the capacity to find the reason to grant Him this permission?

At the worst they may have to wait for the resurrection, which is, in effect, Jehovah's fail safe arrangement.
MadCornishBiker
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6/1/2016 3:08:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2016 2:02:19 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 6/1/2016 1:48:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/1/2016 1:27:11 PM, Chaosism wrote:
So, you don't believe that such truly overwhelming urges exist? You don't believe that brain deficiencies can cause behaviours to emerge despite the victims convictions?

Of course I do, that is why we need the extra strength that Jehovah can and does provide, because otherwise these things would overwhelm us, as they did me.

That is in fact my point.

So, in the cases presented previously, would Jehovah have addressed the physical ailment of the tumor? And if so, why did He not do so with these people who were evidently aware that something was wrong and sought being relieved of their ailments?

Since you have previously expressed that you believe humans aren't capable of such evils on their own, is Satan responsible for those tumors?

He is responsible for all the human imperfections we have inherited from Adam.

1. Even Adam's capacity to disobey God?

No, that is purely down to teh fact that Jhvoah gave us teh ability to choose and trusted us to use it coorectly, exactly as he did with the Angels.

Adam let him down, betrayed that trust.


2. Did God create Satan?

He created the Angel who turned himself into a Satan and a Devil.

He did not make him become a Satan.


Some people have brain deficiencies that prevent them from acting coherently at all, and turn them into psychotic individuals with no remorse. They literally have no capacity for it and, as such, would be incapable of perceiving a reason to turn to Jehovah. What of these people?

That is a good question, but I have to admit that I cannot see Jehovah letting them miss out over that. He could after all implant the desire in their minds and hope they acted on it, and I am sure he would do.

You've previously expressed that Jehovah would not violate one's privacy and intervene without the individuals permission, so what of these people that have not the capacity to find the reason to grant Him this permission?

That is true, but that only applies t actually reading their minds.

We continually betray ourselves by the way we act and speak. Jehovah can get all he needs to know from that without invading our privacy.

I doubt that would stop him implanting the desire in our minds for us to act on all the same. He just would not force us to act on it.

And like I say, there is always the fall back position of the resurrection.

All that needs is for them to die before Armageddon.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
bulproof
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6/1/2016 3:41:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2016 3:08:19 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/1/2016 2:02:19 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 6/1/2016 1:48:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/1/2016 1:27:11 PM, Chaosism wrote:
So, you don't believe that such truly overwhelming urges exist? You don't believe that brain deficiencies can cause behaviours to emerge despite the victims convictions?

Of course I do, that is why we need the extra strength that Jehovah can and does provide, because otherwise these things would overwhelm us, as they did me.

That is in fact my point.

So, in the cases presented previously, would Jehovah have addressed the physical ailment of the tumor? And if so, why did He not do so with these people who were evidently aware that something was wrong and sought being relieved of their ailments?

Since you have previously expressed that you believe humans aren't capable of such evils on their own, is Satan responsible for those tumors?

He is responsible for all the human imperfections we have inherited from Adam.

1. Even Adam's capacity to disobey God?

No, that is purely down to teh fact that Jhvoah gave us teh ability to choose and trusted us to use it coorectly, exactly as he did with the Angels.

Adam let him down, betrayed that trust.


2. Did God create Satan?

He created the Angel who turned himself into a Satan and a Devil.

He did not make him become a Satan.


Some people have brain deficiencies that prevent them from acting coherently at all, and turn them into psychotic individuals with no remorse. They literally have no capacity for it and, as such, would be incapable of perceiving a reason to turn to Jehovah. What of these people?

That is a good question, but I have to admit that I cannot see Jehovah letting them miss out over that. He could after all implant the desire in their minds and hope they acted on it, and I am sure he would do.

You've previously expressed that Jehovah would not violate one's privacy and intervene without the individuals permission, so what of these people that have not the capacity to find the reason to grant Him this permission?

That is true, but that only applies t actually reading their minds.

We continually betray ourselves by the way we act and speak. Jehovah can get all he needs to know from that without invading our privacy.

I doubt that would stop him implanting the desire in our minds for us to act on all the same. He just would not force us to act on it.

And like I say, there is always the fall back position of the resurrection.

All that needs is for them to die before Armageddon.
The question specifically targets christians, thus ruling you out madman.
Chaosism
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6/1/2016 3:43:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2016 3:08:19 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/1/2016 2:02:19 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 6/1/2016 1:48:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/1/2016 1:27:11 PM, Chaosism wrote:
So, you don't believe that such truly overwhelming urges exist? You don't believe that brain deficiencies can cause behaviours to emerge despite the victims convictions?

Of course I do, that is why we need the extra strength that Jehovah can and does provide, because otherwise these things would overwhelm us, as they did me.

That is in fact my point.

So, in the cases presented previously, would Jehovah have addressed the physical ailment of the tumor? And if so, why did He not do so with these people who were evidently aware that something was wrong and sought being relieved of their ailments?

Did you have any response to this part?

Since you have previously expressed that you believe humans aren't capable of such evils on their own, is Satan responsible for those tumors?

He is responsible for all the human imperfections we have inherited from Adam.

1. Even Adam's capacity to disobey God?

No, that is purely down to teh fact that Jhvoah gave us teh ability to choose and trusted us to use it coorectly, exactly as he did with the Angels.

Adam let him down, betrayed that trust.

Wouldn't that render free will an imperfection by design, then? If Jehovah specifically gave Adam the capacity to disobey Him, then the consequences of this are a direct result of the design. To put it analogously (as to set aside the notion that Jehovah could be ignorant of what He was designing):

1. You wish for a coin that you hold to be "heads" side up.
2. You have the flawless ability to place it down in the desired orientation.

What reason could you possibly have for opting to flip the coin and risk not getting the desired result ("heads") if the alternative result ("tails") was not also desired? You've intentionally introduced a flawed method of achieving the desired ends by intentionally enabling failure.

2. Did God create Satan?

He created the Angel who turned himself into a Satan and a Devil.

He did not make him become a Satan.

For the sake or argument, I'll say perhaps not, but He is still solely responsible for His existence and, thus, the preventable havoc that was and is permitted to occur.

You've previously expressed that Jehovah would not violate one's privacy and intervene without the individuals permission, so what of these people that have not the capacity to find the reason to grant Him this permission?

That is true, but that only applies t actually reading their minds.

We continually betray ourselves by the way we act and speak. Jehovah can get all he needs to know from that without invading our privacy.

I doubt that would stop him implanting the desire in our minds for us to act on all the same. He just would not force us to act on it.

And like I say, there is always the fall back position of the resurrection.

All that needs is for them to die before Armageddon.

Thank you for your answers, I'll drop this part for now.
matt8800
Posts: 2,773
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6/1/2016 3:46:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 8:59:46 AM, JusAnoCon wrote:
At 5/29/2016 7:29:59 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:18:42 AM, JusAnoCon wrote:
It is true that, at times in the past, God called for total war against specific cities, groups, and states as judgement for the evils they had perpetrated. But these calls to war had a set limit; they were enacted only against specific targets, and the call ended when the target was destroyed. As such, the Bible does not call those of us alive today to engage in any such actions. All such wars ended more than two thousand years ago. God alone would be able to call us to such action again, and Christ, who is God, has made it clear that he will not; and no such call to action is given in the teachings of Christ or the writings of the Apostles.

As to your accusation that rape is condoned by Scripture, I challenge you to find an instance where that is true. Forcing oneself upon another sexually is never an action approved of in any form that I have found in over 12 years of study in the Scripture, and I am constantly baffled by people who think it is. Perhaps, if you could find such an instance, I'd gladly take a critical look at it.

Fair enough.

Numbers 31:17-18 "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Lets look at 2 different scenarios:

1. Israelites invade neighboring peoples, kill all the males and females that have ever slept with a man. The invading men take the virgins for themselves. (note: Since many girls married soon after they are sexually mature in those days, most virgins would probably be considered around 13 years old or younger).

2. US troops invade Afghanistan, kill all the males and females that have ever slept with a man. The invading men take the virgins for themselves. (Since girls marry very young in that culture, many virgins would be somewhere around 13-15ish)

Would you say that both, one or neither scenarios are immoral?

Clarification: Is this a supposed example of rape, or are you trying to challenge something else, unrelated to how Christians know what is right and wrong? Because, of the examples you've given, neither is substantive in the former case. Capture is, after all, not rape; not even implicitly. And in the latter case, I have quite succinctly answered the question posed by this thread already, and I don't see how this changes the answer I gave.

I just noticed I mentioned the word rape in a previous post which is why you addressed it. I believe my other points stand however.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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6/1/2016 3:55:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 9:24:22 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/26/2016 10:39:21 PM, janesix wrote:
Do you consult your Bible when you need to make a moral decision?

What if the Bible conflicts with your conscience?

Then you train your conscience to fit what the Bible says.

I can't believe you just said that! That is every religious religious nuts/terrorists mind-set.

This actively promotes dismissing critical logic and thought.

I guess the MadCornishBiker has trained his brain to believe genocide and slavery is morale. So if I took your mother as a slave I guess you would shout 'hallelujah, praise the lord'
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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6/1/2016 4:01:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 5:14:30 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 4:10:02 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/29/2016 12:18:42 AM, JusAnoCon wrote:
It is true that, at times in the past, God called for total war against specific cities, groups, and states as judgement for the evils they had perpetrated
Provide evidence of these alleged evils, the bible isn't evidence it's the claim.

No the Bible is the evidence. It's accuracy is the proof, deny it as you do, ti is accurate and it is true.

I wish the same could be said about the entirety of translations. But no matter because the truth is still in there even if men have tried to hide it. They have failed. All they succeeded in is making it harder to find.

In fact the main purpose of the Bible is to give us the evidence against Satan, much of it written in advance of it's actual happening.

When the last of it is fulfilled, which it will be since no-one can stop Jehovah, the evidence will be complete and the eternal precedent set.

Where there is precedent justice can be swift.

I know most religious people lack critical thinking skills, but surely even you understand why a book can not be proof of the books realiability and truth. The proof is either independent or gets dismissed. All though I don't expect you will understand this.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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6/1/2016 4:04:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2016 7:03:11 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/31/2016 6:45:44 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 5/31/2016 9:24:22 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/26/2016 10:39:21 PM, janesix wrote:
Do you consult your Bible when you need to make a moral decision?

What if the Bible conflicts with your conscience?

Then you train your conscience to fit what the Bible says.

Man, these are the kinds of responses that scare the sh!t out of me.

Evidently, but they shouldn't because mankind was created with the capacity to, ad responsibility for doing just that.

Are you really that afraid of taking responsibility for your own thoughts and actions?

Says the guy who relies on a bronze age book to get his Morales from.......