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Why do you oppose abortion?

Chloe8
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9/26/2016 10:48:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2016 1:36:26 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Animals are yummy.

Your point is?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Pigs are destined for food. If they weren't, we wouldn't breed them.

That's true. If a child is not wanted why allow a human foetus to develop?

Fetuses are destined for personhood. Aborting them denies them their destiny.

A pig would lead a happy life as a pig if allowed to live a natural lifespan.

Cognitive development has nothing to do with it.

For the record, I find it just as repugnant to abort piglets.

Why?

Especially hypocritical when you acknowledge you like the taste of pigs.

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others?

For the most part, I don't, because I recognize that abortion is a complicated subject and my views are in the minority. That said, we impose opinions on others all the time; that's essentially the point of having laws.

So you would be happy to allow people to choose to have abortions?

You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal,

This happens all the time.

Really?

yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

Not okay, just a lesser evil than abortion.

Why is abortion evil?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs.

I'm not religious.

Fair enough.

Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Religious opposition to abortion makes me laugh, since Yahweh talks several times about having pregnant women "cut open".

He is also responsible for thousands of abortions daily if you believe what the biblical says.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them?

Not a moral person. My criminal record confirms this.

So you admit your not a moral person yet seek to enforce morals on others through the law?

Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?

You have a very one-dimensional view of the world. I hope you grow out of it someday.

Please explain how my view of the world is one dimensional and also how this is a negative thing.
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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9/26/2016 10:54:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?
That unborn baby will grow up to be a person who is capable of making moral judgements and choices. An animal, however, is just that . . . an animal.

You see, animals are, in the very definition of the word, inferior to human beings. Would you rather save a person or an animal? Which one has more value? Harambe or the 3-year-old child stuck in the gorilla enclosure. The answer to this question should be obvious . . . even to an atheist, without using religious morals.

Evolution has given humanity the benefit, and we are by far the superior species.

From technology, to agriculture, to art, we excel in all areas.

Homo sapiens are of higher value than animals and shouldn't be compared to a mere pig.

Regardless, as a human being yourself, wouldn't you value your own species above others?
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
Chloe8
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9/26/2016 10:58:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/25/2016 11:36:10 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Not all suicides are from mental or physical illness. Many cultures regard shame and dishonor to family and self as suicide necessary.

You are talking about honour killings or mentally ill people committing suicide.

I too was an atheist for 30 years and prior to stopping to label myself, I grew to the conclusion that abortion FOR convenience isn't right.

Why do you think you have the right to force others to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

And I can tell this thread was started by a late teen early 20 something idealist who thinks they have everything figured out but will change their viewpoints on many subjects over the coming years... And it's quite comical to think back to myself at that age with similar viewpoints and how much life experience alters that idealist bs.

You changing your mind about issues demonstrates your uncertainty and indecision. Claiming I will also do so in the future to such an extent is unsubstantiated and unknowable. What I can say is I have changed my mind about very little in recent years. I'm not an idealist, I'm a realist. You making degrading statements about my age suggests nothing more than jealousy and immaturity on your behalf and regrets over previous views you held and how frequently your opinions change.
Chloe8
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9/26/2016 11:16:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2016 10:54:48 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?
That unborn baby will grow up to be a person who is capable of making moral judgements and choices. An animal, however, is just that . . . an animal.

But that's the future not the present. In the present both animal and foetus are indistinguishable.

You see, animals are, in the very definition of the word, inferior to human beings. Would you rather save a person or an animal? Which one has more value? Harambe or the 3-year-old child stuck in the gorilla enclosure. The answer to this question should be obvious . . . even to an atheist, without using religious morals.

I would save the child. I agree its an obvious decision. Religion does not make people more likely to carry out heroic acts.

Evolution has given humanity the benefit, and we are by far the superior species.

In terms of cognitive ability that's certainly true.

From technology, to agriculture, to art, we excel in all areas.

In other words we are an intelligent life form and animals are not.

Homo sapiens are of higher value than animals and shouldn't be compared to a mere pig.

Regardless, as a human being yourself, wouldn't you value your own species above others?

Yes I would. My point is though a foetus has more in common with animals in terms of cognitive development than adult humans.
Stymie13
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9/26/2016 11:37:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2016 10:58:14 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 11:36:10 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Not all suicides are from mental or physical illness. Many cultures regard shame and dishonor to family and self as suicide necessary.

You are talking about honour killings or mentally ill people committing suicide.

I too was an atheist for 30 years and prior to stopping to label myself, I grew to the conclusion that abortion FOR convenience isn't right.

Why do you think you have the right to force others to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

And I can tell this thread was started by a late teen early 20 something idealist who thinks they have everything figured out but will change their viewpoints on many subjects over the coming years... And it's quite comical to think back to myself at that age with similar viewpoints and how much life experience alters that idealist bs.

You changing your mind about issues demonstrates your uncertainty and indecision. Claiming I will also do so in the future to such an extent is unsubstantiated and unknowable. What I can say is I have changed my mind about very little in recent years. I'm not an idealist, I'm a realist. You making degrading statements about my age suggests nothing more than jealousy and immaturity on your behalf and regrets over previous views you held and how frequently your opinions change.

I'm a realist... the classic non-sensical argument. lol

without blasting your whole contention apart... no, i wasn't talking about honor killings (we are in america, spell the word in american, not english and linguists did separate the languages from each other when you were like 2). bringing dishonor and shame in many east Asian, pacific islander, and a few of the meso american cultures, suicide was expected. honor killings as you are referring are a muslim phenomena and they aren't suicide, they are murder.

the mentally ill were already excluded from the topic.

since no where did i indicate that abortion should be illegal, but that it's not 'right', how is that 'pushing' a belief? seems you are hypersensitive to the subject. did you just abort twins or something? have a train ran on you by a bunch of drunk frat guy while you were passed out and had to use ru 486? lol

oh, i can get much more blunt if you choose to continue your self righteous bs instead of just accepting some people, not me per se, but many find abortion abhorrent and they are completely within the realms of normalcy for having that notion... just as the whole 'it's my body and i can do what i want to' is also normal. just leave the self righteous bs behind because, as stated, you are too damn young and naive to truly have an idea of what will occur in your life over the next 20 years. will you change your mind? personally, i could give 2 shlts. have those of us that are double or triple your age heard your silly contention before? AD NAUSEUM. it's not a novel concept.
Vaarka
Posts: 13,073
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9/26/2016 11:46:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2016 10:36:24 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:45:56 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?

I don't usually oppose it, persay, and usually try to leave religion out of that decision, but if I had to base my answer on something, I'd think of a Fahrenheit 451 example. I think the idea of abortion is fine if the person giving birth is in danger of losing her life, so this usually pertains to younger girls. If it's a matter of rape, that's another thing where I'd say the idea of abortion is reasonable.

However, if it's just because you don't want a kid, but you were a consenting adult, then that's not a good enough reason for me. The idea of aborting a child purely because you don't want it doesn't appeal to me.

Another thing with the idea of abortion is that most women see it as black and white, which is either have the kid and raise it or abort it. There are other options, such as giving the child up for adoption, where they still get to live. This is mainly because the child doesn't really have a choice here. That, and I have a friend who is adopted, and if the thought of abortion hadn't been as unpopular as it was 16 years ago, he probably would have been aborted.

Why do you think you have a right to enforce your views on other people?
I literally only read this sentence and knew I really didn't want to deal with such a bullsh!t question, but I will anyway. You ASKED us "why do you oppose abortion", and I told you the situations in which I approve of it, and then gave a few other situations in which I oppose it. Your little question up there seriously just turned my opinion of you to a mixture of dust, and it was one sentence. Good job!

"Why do you think you have a right to enforce your views on other people?" -- What kind of bullsh!t is that? You asked me a question, I answered with my opinion on the matter, and not once did I imply that I was forcing my views on people.

If a woman does not want to go through nine months of pregnancy that is her choice and you should respect that.

I'm not gonna try and stop her if it's her final decision, but I do have an urge to discourage it. Whether or not she decides to do it is her final choice, but if it's simply because some woman had consented sex with someone and became pregnant, and then doesn't want it, then I find that to be rather unappealing and not a good reason. Does she absolutely positively want to go through with the abortion, then cool, she can do that. It doesn't mean that I will shame her.
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Chloe8
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9/27/2016 12:10:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2016 11:37:52 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:58:14 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 11:36:10 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Not all suicides are from mental or physical illness. Many cultures regard shame and dishonor to family and self as suicide necessary.

You are talking about honour killings or mentally ill people committing suicide.

I too was an atheist for 30 years and prior to stopping to label myself, I grew to the conclusion that abortion FOR convenience isn't right.

Why do you think you have the right to force others to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

And I can tell this thread was started by a late teen early 20 something idealist who thinks they have everything figured out but will change their viewpoints on many subjects over the coming years... And it's quite comical to think back to myself at that age with similar viewpoints and how much life experience alters that idealist bs.

You changing your mind about issues demonstrates your uncertainty and indecision. Claiming I will also do so in the future to such an extent is unsubstantiated and unknowable. What I can say is I have changed my mind about very little in recent years. I'm not an idealist, I'm a realist. You making degrading statements about my age suggests nothing more than jealousy and immaturity on your behalf and regrets over previous views you held and how frequently your opinions change.

I'm a realist... the classic non-sensical argument. lol


without blasting your whole contention apart... no, i wasn't talking about honor killings (we are in america, spell the word in american, not english and linguists did separate the languages from each other when you were like 2).

I'm from the UK and will spell the word correctly in the true form of the English language as is my right. Just as you are entitled to use the American version of the language originating in MY country.

bringing dishonor and shame in many east Asian, pacific islander, and a few of the meso american cultures, suicide was expected.

Show me examples of this happening in the 21st century on a significant scale.

honor killings as you are referring are a muslim phenomena and they aren't suicide, they are murder.

That's true. HONOUR killings are murder.

the mentally ill were already excluded from the topic.

since no where did i indicate that abortion should be illegal, but that it's not 'right', how is that 'pushing' a belief? seems you are hypersensitive to the subject. did you just abort twins or something? have a train ran on you by a bunch of drunk frat guy while you were passed out and had to use ru 486? lol

So you accept it's unacceptable to restrict women's reproductive rights?

oh, i can get much more blunt if you choose to continue your self righteous bs instead of just accepting some people, not me per se, but many find abortion abhorrent and they are completely within the realms of normalcy for having that notion... just as the whole 'it's my body and i can do what i want to' is also normal. just leave the self righteous bs behind because, as stated, you are too damn young and naive to truly have an idea of what will occur in your life over the next 20 years. will you change your mind? personally, i could give 2 shlts. have those of us that are double or triple your age heard your silly contention before? AD NAUSEUM. it's not a novel concept.

Hahaha threatening me with abusive messages online. What a mature person you are.

I unashamedly take an aggressive stance against people who deny women's reproductive rights. I can assure you I will hold this position for the duration of my life. Using my age as an argument against my views is simply devoid of logic and is no more than a petty personal attack.

I attack beliefs and not people. I'm here to argue about intellectual topics not make friends
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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9/27/2016 12:25:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2016 11:16:11 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:54:48 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?
That unborn baby will grow up to be a person who is capable of making moral judgements and choices. An animal, however, is just that . . . an animal.

But that's the future not the present. In the present both animal and foetus are indistinguishable.
It doesn't matter if it is currently not an intelligent life form. It will eventually grow to be one. A pig, on the other hand, will remain a mentally incompetent, moraless creature for the rest of its days.
You see, animals are, in the very definition of the word, inferior to human beings. Would you rather save a person or an animal? Which one has more value? Harambe or the 3-year-old child stuck in the gorilla enclosure. The answer to this question should be obvious . . . even to an atheist, without using religious morals.

I would save the child.
Good. I'm glad we agree.
I agree its an obvious decision. Religion does not make people more likely to carry out heroic acts.
Does it? Well it certainly teaches that one should carry out heroic acts (i.e. feeding the poor, caring for the homeless, helping others when you can, etc.).
Evolution has given humanity the benefit, and we are by far the superior species.

In terms of cognitive ability that's certainly true.
Yes, and cognitive ability pretty much determines the superiority of a species.
From technology, to agriculture, to art, we excel in all areas.

In other words we are an intelligent life form and animals are not.
Exactly.
Homo sapiens are of higher value than animals and shouldn't be compared to a mere pig.

Regardless, as a human being yourself, wouldn't you value your own species above others?

Yes I would. My point is though a foetus has more in common with animals in terms of cognitive development than adult humans.
Although a fetus will develop into an intelligent, mature human being. An animal, like I said before, will not and never will.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
Stymie13
Posts: 3,119
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9/27/2016 12:25:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/27/2016 12:10:13 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 11:37:52 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:58:14 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 11:36:10 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Not all suicides are from mental or physical illness. Many cultures regard shame and dishonor to family and self as suicide necessary.

You are talking about honour killings or mentally ill people committing suicide.

I too was an atheist for 30 years and prior to stopping to label myself, I grew to the conclusion that abortion FOR convenience isn't right.

Why do you think you have the right to force others to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

And I can tell this thread was started by a late teen early 20 something idealist who thinks they have everything figured out but will change their viewpoints on many subjects over the coming years... And it's quite comical to think back to myself at that age with similar viewpoints and how much life experience alters that idealist bs.

You changing your mind about issues demonstrates your uncertainty and indecision. Claiming I will also do so in the future to such an extent is unsubstantiated and unknowable. What I can say is I have changed my mind about very little in recent years. I'm not an idealist, I'm a realist. You making degrading statements about my age suggests nothing more than jealousy and immaturity on your behalf and regrets over previous views you held and how frequently your opinions change.

I'm a realist... the classic non-sensical argument. lol


without blasting your whole contention apart... no, i wasn't talking about honor killings (we are in america, spell the word in american, not english and linguists did separate the languages from each other when you were like 2).

I'm from the UK and will spell the word correctly in the true form of the English language as is my right. Just as you are entitled to use the American version of the language originating in MY country.

bringing dishonor and shame in many east Asian, pacific islander, and a few of the meso american cultures, suicide was expected.

Show me examples of this happening in the 21st century on a significant scale.

honor killings as you are referring are a muslim phenomena and they aren't suicide, they are murder.

That's true. HONOUR killings are murder.

the mentally ill were already excluded from the topic.

since no where did i indicate that abortion should be illegal, but that it's not 'right', how is that 'pushing' a belief? seems you are hypersensitive to the subject. did you just abort twins or something? have a train ran on you by a bunch of drunk frat guy while you were passed out and had to use ru 486? lol

So you accept it's unacceptable to restrict women's reproductive rights?

oh, i can get much more blunt if you choose to continue your self righteous bs instead of just accepting some people, not me per se, but many find abortion abhorrent and they are completely within the realms of normalcy for having that notion... just as the whole 'it's my body and i can do what i want to' is also normal. just leave the self righteous bs behind because, as stated, you are too damn young and naive to truly have an idea of what will occur in your life over the next 20 years. will you change your mind? personally, i could give 2 shlts. have those of us that are double or triple your age heard your silly contention before? AD NAUSEUM. it's not a novel concept.

Hahaha threatening me with abusive messages online. What a mature person you are.

I unashamedly take an aggressive stance against people who deny women's reproductive rights. I can assure you I will hold this position for the duration of my life. Using my age as an argument against my views is simply devoid of logic and is no more than a petty personal attack.

I attack beliefs and not people. I'm here to argue about intellectual topics not make friends

none of what i stated was a 'personal attack'. it was strictly observation and, being i'm not the only one that has noticed your self righteous attitude, the contention stands.

normally i wouldn't use wiki but it was the first thing up, has current stats for japan, and once again refutes your contention on suicide do to shame in current society.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

so, you don't like aggressive counters... aggressive contentions receive aggressive counters. get over it.

i'm actually glad you won't change your mind on anything... especially this subject. and that's not a cheap shot saying you shouldn't procreate. now, if you were still a uk citizen and critiquing our laws, then you should be mocked, ridiculed, and met with derision. but, since you are a legal resident??? by all means, ru-486 away. you'll find out why later in life when those you know who have went through the procedure are racked with remorse.
kevin24018
Posts: 6,891
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9/27/2016 12:59:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2016 10:38:59 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:29:28 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 10:51:52 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 12:08:55 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/21/2016 9:48:55 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/21/2016 8:44:02 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

animals can never be self aware

A foetus is not self aware either.

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

never heard of PETA? lots of animal rights have cause violence over the issue

I don't see any vegetarians calling a vet a murderer for giving a dog an abortion.

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?

I don't want to pay for it, so it shouldn't be paid for by tax money except for the most extreme cases, it's dangerous on a variety of levels for the mother, there's lots of people willing to adopt, various forms of birth control are available, including (drum roll please) SELF CONTROL!!!!! oh no personal responsibility say it ain't so.

Yes I think if someone is an adult and has means to afford it they should pay for abortions.

Obviously using birth control is advisable but unfortunately unintended pregnancies happen.

The reality Is there is a big shortage of foster parents and the woman would then have to go through with 9 months of unwanted pregnancy.

too bad, who chose to have sex? how traumatic physically and emotionally can an abortion be? Like all negative behavior if you reduce the consequences to something very minor, not only will it continue and get worse. I know a woman who had 10 abortions, her insurance (medicare, yes medicare) told her they were not going to pay for another. So let's make it a 1 time life benefit, aside from rape you get one get out of free jail card, that's it.

No it should be a case of you paying for your own abortions if and when you need them unless you are a child, someone with special needs or someone unable to afford abortions. In the long term the cost of an abortion is negligible when compared to the cost of raising a child in care homes.

People choose to have sex for a variety of reasons but mainly due to the pleasure of the activity and/ or the desire to reproduce.

do you honestly believe that the % who have abortions don't end up have a child in a fatherless home isn't very high, so it may be delaying it, but we pay for it eventually.

What point are you making here?

People who have abortions will not neccessarily become single parents.

well you said " In the long term the cost of an abortion is negligible when compared to the cost of raising a child in care homes." so you brought up cost, I say a high % will end up in that boat anyway so....thought it was pretty clear...they will raise a child alone on welfare, look at what demographic has the highest rate of abortions.
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Genius_Intellect
Posts: 339
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9/27/2016 1:34:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2016 10:48:22 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:36:26 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Animals are yummy.

Your point is?

That we kill animals because meat tastes good.

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Pigs are destined for food. If they weren't, we wouldn't breed them.

That's true. If a child is not wanted why allow a human foetus to develop?

If you have a basket of kittens that you don't want, would you give them away or drown them in the bath? If you have a newborn baby that you plan to adopt out, would you stop caring for it in the meantime? If you choose life in both of those situations, why would you not choose life in the case of a fetus? And if you say, "it's my body, my choice," then I reply, "it's only nine months, suck it up."

Fetuses are destined for personhood. Aborting them denies them their destiny.

A pig would lead a happy life as a pig if allowed to live a natural lifespan.

We don't farm pigs to give them long lives. We farm them to eat them. Farms aren't zoos and livestock aren't pets, though obviously pigs can be kept for those purposes as well.

Cognitive development has nothing to do with it.

For the record, I find it just as repugnant to abort piglets.

Why?

Especially hypocritical when you acknowledge you like the taste of pigs.

I don't eat baby pigs.

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others?

For the most part, I don't, because I recognize that abortion is a complicated subject and my views are in the minority. That said, we impose opinions on others all the time; that's essentially the point of having laws.

So you would be happy to allow people to choose to have abortions?

Not happy, but I realize that I'm not getting a say in the matter regardless. Put it to a vote and I may change my tune.

I don't think we should outlaw abortion entirely: it should definitely be allowed if the mother's life is at risk or the child is severely deformed (I'd sacrifice my life if I was the mother, but I can't insist that other people sacrifice theirs).

You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal,

This happens all the time.

Really?

What rock have you been living under?

yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

Not okay, just a lesser evil than abortion.

Why is abortion evil?

Better question: why is it less evil than killing a newborn baby? That's where I anchor my views on the matter.

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs.

I'm not religious.

Fair enough.

Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Religious opposition to abortion makes me laugh, since Yahweh talks several times about having pregnant women "cut open".

He is also responsible for thousands of abortions daily if you believe what the biblical says.

Not familiar with that part, but it sounds plausible. Can you cite the relevant passage?

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them?

Not a moral person. My criminal record confirms this.

So you admit your not a moral person yet seek to enforce morals on others through the law?

Actually, I don't.

Also, before accusing people of hypocrisy, remember that we're all guilty of it to some extent.

Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?

You have a very one-dimensional view of the world. I hope you grow out of it someday.

Please explain how my view of the world is one dimensional and also how this is a negative thing.

It's dogmatic. Dogma is bad because it excludes challenge and nuance, and those two things are what life is all about.
difference
Posts: 446
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9/27/2016 4:53:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2016 10:54:48 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?
That unborn baby will grow up to be a person who is capable of making moral judgements and choices. An animal, however, is just that . . . an animal.

No one knows what an unborn baby will become. In the case of abortion, it doesn't become anything.

You see, animals are, in the very definition of the word, inferior to human beings. Would you rather save a person or an animal? Which one has more value? Harambe or the 3-year-old child stuck in the gorilla enclosure. The answer to this question should be obvious . . . even to an atheist, without using religious morals.

Evolution has given humanity the benefit, and we are by far the superior species.

From technology, to agriculture, to art, we excel in all areas.

Homo sapiens are of higher value than animals and shouldn't be compared to a mere pig.

Regardless, as a human being yourself, wouldn't you value your own species above others?
Stymie13
Posts: 3,119
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9/27/2016 11:40:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Personally, I'm for protecting under 16s and gladiatorial combat for all over 16... So, yeah, I put more stock in kids than many adults bs egotistic 'higher cognitive' abilities. Throughout human history, I don't think it was newborns or 10 year olds that fvcked up societies...
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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9/28/2016 2:35:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/27/2016 4:53:39 AM, difference wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:54:48 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?
That unborn baby will grow up to be a person who is capable of making moral judgements and choices. An animal, however, is just that . . . an animal.

No one knows what an unborn baby will become. In the case of abortion, it doesn't become anything.
A human being?
You see, animals are, in the very definition of the word, inferior to human beings. Would you rather save a person or an animal? Which one has more value? Harambe or the 3-year-old child stuck in the gorilla enclosure. The answer to this question should be obvious . . . even to an atheist, without using religious morals.

Evolution has given humanity the benefit, and we are by far the superior species.

From technology, to agriculture, to art, we excel in all areas.

Homo sapiens are of higher value than animals and shouldn't be compared to a mere pig.

Regardless, as a human being yourself, wouldn't you value your own species above others?
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
difference
Posts: 446
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9/28/2016 5:44:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/28/2016 2:35:37 AM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 9/27/2016 4:53:39 AM, difference wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:54:48 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?
That unborn baby will grow up to be a person who is capable of making moral judgements and choices. An animal, however, is just that . . . an animal.

No one knows what an unborn baby will become. In the case of abortion, it doesn't become anything.
A human being?
I guess. I meant that it's hard to guess what kind of person they will be or what life they'll have
Quadrunner
Posts: 5,509
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9/29/2016 11:05:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?

I don't OPPOSE abortion but when people ask I usually tell them they can do whatever they want, but have no way of actually knowing with certainty at what stage in pregnancy abortion is unethical.

I see having the child and giving them up for adoption as a universally correct decision and so that is the one I support.

I'm very much pro-choice and think people should if they care about it just ask their partner what their take is before making babies. That way there is no issue to begin with.

Of course, there are people who believe they know when abortion is immoral and the stages can be very early for those people. I have no qualms with them voicing their opinion, and given the severity of the offense from their perspective respect their objections even to the point of having a profound impact on my life. My reasoning is that there is no certainty. I think abortion is fine. If I'm wrong, and its not, then I'm HORRIBLY WRONG and abortions are practically genocide which is understandably something someone would want to change. If a lifer is wrong, then no big deal, we have to use safer sex practices, which is understandably something we would want to change.

S'no big either way to me as long as people present their opinion with taste.
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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9/30/2016 9:37:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/28/2016 5:44:43 AM, difference wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:35:37 AM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 9/27/2016 4:53:39 AM, difference wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:54:48 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?
That unborn baby will grow up to be a person who is capable of making moral judgements and choices. An animal, however, is just that . . . an animal.

No one knows what an unborn baby will become. In the case of abortion, it doesn't become anything.
A human being?
I guess. I meant that it's hard to guess what kind of person they will be or what life they'll have.
Well, it'll become a human being, and human beings are capable of making moral judgements and moral choices, like I said before. Given a proper upbringing, the fetus will grow up to be a good citizen and contributor to society.

As far as the animal is concerned, it'll remain an an animal and won't contribute to society in any fantastic way like humans are capable of.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
Stymie13
Posts: 3,119
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10/1/2016 4:14:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I oppose abortion because I'm not a seahorse and the 14th amendment affords me equal protection. Damnit I want to abort too!
Chloe8
Posts: 3,621
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10/1/2016 1:38:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2016 11:05:46 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?

I don't OPPOSE abortion but when people ask I usually tell them they can do whatever they want, but have no way of actually knowing with certainty at what stage in pregnancy abortion is unethical.

I see having the child and giving them up for adoption as a universally correct decision and so that is the one I support.

I don't see any point in this if the child won't have parents. Why go through 9 months of pregnancy for an unwanted child?

I'm very much pro-choice and think people should if they care about it just ask their partner what their take is before making babies. That way there is no issue to begin with.

Well obviously using contraception is the best measure to protect against pregnancy if it's not desired.

Of course, there are people who believe they know when abortion is immoral and the stages can be very early for those people. I have no qualms with them voicing their opinion, and given the severity of the offense from their perspective respect their objections even to the point of having a profound impact on my life. My reasoning is that there is no certainty. I think abortion is fine. If I'm wrong, and its not, then I'm HORRIBLY WRONG and abortions are practically genocide which is understandably something someone would want to change. If a lifer is wrong, then no big deal, we have to use safer sex practices, which is understandably something we would want to change.

What makes you think abortion is either extremely bad or fine and not something in between?

S'no big either way to me as long as people present their opinion with taste.
Chloe8
Posts: 3,621
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10/1/2016 2:00:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/27/2016 1:34:46 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:48:22 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:36:26 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Animals are yummy.

Your point is?

That we kill animals because meat tastes good.

We also kill them for sport, because they may be a danger or because they may be considered pests.

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Pigs are destined for food. If they weren't, we wouldn't breed them.

That's true. If a child is not wanted why allow a human foetus to develop?

If you have a basket of kittens that you don't want, would you give them away or drown them in the bath?

Most likely no one would want them. I really wouldn't care if they were killed. Animals are killed all the time, why care about a few cats.

If you have a newborn baby that you plan to adopt out, would you stop caring for it in the meantime?

If I chose to have a baby I would plan to look after it. I would not have a baby and plan to put it up for adoption. In my opinion that would be a stupid and pointless thing to do.

If you choose life in both of those situations, why would you not choose life in the case of a fetus? And if you say, "it's my body, my choice," then I reply, "it's only nine months, suck it up."

I don't value the life of cats at all. I value my own life and the quality of my life so will not go through pregnancy until I actually want children. It is pointless to go through pregnancy if you don't want a child. Why would someone else having an abortion bother you? How are you effected?

Fetuses are destined for personhood. Aborting them denies them their destiny.

A pig would lead a happy life as a pig if allowed to live a natural lifespan.

We don't farm pigs to give them long lives. We farm them to eat them. Farms aren't zoos and livestock aren't pets, though obviously pigs can be kept for those purposes as well.

Women who have sex usually don't want to get pregnant. It's not usually part of the plan. Having fun is usually the plan.

Cognitive development has nothing to do with it.

For the record, I find it just as repugnant to abort piglets.

Why?

Especially hypocritical when you acknowledge you like the taste of pigs.

I don't eat baby pigs.

So you don't eat pork?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Piglets are slaughtered at between 6 and 12 weeks.

You are obviously ignorant of agricultural practices. It's also strange why you think killing adult pigs is ok but not piglets.

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others?

For the most part, I don't, because I recognize that abortion is a complicated subject and my views are in the minority. That said, we impose opinions on others all the time; that's essentially the point of having laws.

Laws are neccessary for a variety of reasons. Damaging the lives of women is a bad idea and therefore its right that abortion is legal.

So you would be happy to allow people to choose to have abortions?

Not happy, but I realize that I'm not getting a say in the matter regardless. Put it to a vote and I may change my tune.

In my country the vote would be around 4 to 1 in favour of supporting women's reproductive rights.

I don't think we should outlaw abortion entirely: it should definitely be allowed if the mother's life is at risk or the child is severely deformed (I'd sacrifice my life if I was the mother, but I can't insist that other people sacrifice theirs).

So you would force rape victims to endure pregnancy?

Why would you choose to needlessly die? If the foetus is still in the womb it would die anyway.

You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal,

This happens all the time.

Really?

What rock have you been living under?

yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

Not okay, just a lesser evil than abortion.

Why is abortion evil?

Better question: why is it less evil than killing a newborn baby? That's where I anchor my views on the matter.

Because a baby is more developed than a foetus.

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs.

I'm not religious.

Fair enough.

Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Religious opposition to abortion makes me laugh, since Yahweh talks several times about having pregnant women "cut open".

He is also responsible for thousands of abortions daily if you believe what the biblical says.

Not familiar with that part, but it sounds plausible. Can you cite the relevant passage?

If Yawheh is omnipotent and omniscient as the bible claims obviously he chooses to cause every natural abortion to happen.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them?

Not a moral person. My criminal record confirms this.

So you admit your not a moral person yet seek to enforce morals on others through the law?

Actually, I don't.

Also, before accusing people of hypocrisy, remember that we're all guilty of it to some extent.

Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?

You have a very one-dimensional view of the world. I hope you grow out of it someday.

Please explain how my view of the world is one dimensional and also how this is a negative thing.

It's dogmatic. Dogma is bad because it excludes challenge and nuance, and those two things are what life is all about.

I'm open to changing my mind if it's proved my opinions are wrong. That occasionally happens but not very often.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 5,316
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10/1/2016 2:58:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/1/2016 2:00:14 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/27/2016 1:34:46 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:48:22 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:36:26 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Animals are yummy.

Your point is?

That we kill animals because meat tastes good.

We also kill them for sport, because they may be a danger or because they may be considered pests.

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Pigs are destined for food. If they weren't, we wouldn't breed them.

That's true. If a child is not wanted why allow a human foetus to develop?

If you have a basket of kittens that you don't want, would you give them away or drown them in the bath?

Most likely no one would want them. I really wouldn't care if they were killed. Animals are killed all the time, why care about a few cats.

If you have a newborn baby that you plan to adopt out, would you stop caring for it in the meantime?

If I chose to have a baby I would plan to look after it. I would not have a baby and plan to put it up for adoption. In my opinion that would be a stupid and pointless thing to do.

If you choose life in both of those situations, why would you not choose life in the case of a fetus? And if you say, "it's my body, my choice," then I reply, "it's only nine months, suck it up."

I don't value the life of cats at all. I value my own life and the quality of my life so will not go through pregnancy until I actually want children. It is pointless to go through pregnancy if you don't want a child. Why would someone else having an abortion bother you? How are you effected?

Fetuses are destined for personhood. Aborting them denies them their destiny.

A pig would lead a happy life as a pig if allowed to live a natural lifespan.

We don't farm pigs to give them long lives. We farm them to eat them. Farms aren't zoos and livestock aren't pets, though obviously pigs can be kept for those purposes as well.

Women who have sex usually don't want to get pregnant. It's not usually part of the plan. Having fun is usually the plan.

Cognitive development has nothing to do with it.

For the record, I find it just as repugnant to abort piglets.

Why?

Especially hypocritical when you acknowledge you like the taste of pigs.

I don't eat baby pigs.

So you don't eat pork?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Piglets are slaughtered at between 6 and 12 weeks.

You are obviously ignorant of agricultural practices. It's also strange why you think killing adult pigs is ok but not piglets.

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others?

For the most part, I don't, because I recognize that abortion is a complicated subject and my views are in the minority. That said, we impose opinions on others all the time; that's essentially the point of having laws.

Laws are neccessary for a variety of reasons. Damaging the lives of women is a bad idea and therefore its right that abortion is legal.

So you would be happy to allow people to choose to have abortions?

Not happy, but I realize that I'm not getting a say in the matter regardless. Put it to a vote and I may change my tune.

In my country the vote would be around 4 to 1 in favour of supporting women's reproductive rights.

I don't think we should outlaw abortion entirely: it should definitely be allowed if the mother's life is at risk or the child is severely deformed (I'd sacrifice my life if I was the mother, but I can't insist that other people sacrifice theirs).

So you would force rape victims to endure pregnancy?

Why would you choose to needlessly die? If the foetus is still in the womb it would die anyway.

You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal,

This happens all the time.

Really?

What rock have you been living under?

yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

Not okay, just a lesser evil than abortion.

Why is abortion evil?

Better question: why is it less evil than killing a newborn baby? That's where I anchor my views on the matter.

Because a baby is more developed than a foetus.

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs.

I'm not religious.

Fair enough.

Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Religious opposition to abortion makes me laugh, since Yahweh talks several times about having pregnant women "cut open".

He is also responsible for thousands of abortions daily if you believe what the biblical says.

Not familiar with that part, but it sounds plausible. Can you cite the relevant passage?

If Yawheh is omnipotent and omniscient as the bible claims obviously he chooses to cause every natural abortion to happen.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them?

Not a moral person. My criminal record confirms this.

So you admit your not a moral person yet seek to enforce morals on others through the law?

Actually, I don't.

Also, before accusing people of hypocrisy, remember that we're all guilty of it to some extent.

Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?

You have a very one-dimensional view of the world. I hope you grow out of it someday.

Please explain how my view of the world is one dimensional and also how this is a negative thing.

It's dogmatic. Dogma is bad because it excludes challenge and nuance, and those two things are what life is all about.

I'm open to changing my mind if it's proved my opinions are wrong. That occasionally happens but not very often.

As mere male I have no grounds to oppose. Well not legally anyway.
I don't oppose abortion .
But as your all about fairness, do you think a male that opposes abortion should be able to have some kind of say in it, by law ?
Maybe they can sue for damages , or if they can prove worthiness or something maybe they can be solely responsible for the child with the women waiving her rights to the child. And in this if the women was to die during the birth from complications they will be held responsible and dealt with accordingly. There is alot to work out I know, But do you think one day rights for males should be put in place ?
I know having a child is alot of work for the women , like pretty much all the work. But like in some divorce procedures , things getting split 50/50 . When one of the two bring nothing ? Maybe people could form some kind of group to help the male in this area.
Probably not hey ?
Genius_Intellect
Posts: 339
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10/1/2016 11:25:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/1/2016 2:00:14 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/27/2016 1:34:46 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
That we kill animals because meat tastes good.

We also kill them for sport, because they may be a danger or because they may be considered pests.

I don't condone killing for sport. Self-defense and environmental protection are separate issues. If I caught an adult human trying to burn down a forest, you can bet I'd kill them too.

If you have a basket of kittens that you don't want, would you give them away or drown them in the bath?

Most likely no one would want them. I really wouldn't care if they were killed. Animals are killed all the time, why care about a few cats.

You're not a cat-person, I take it.

If you have a newborn baby that you plan to adopt out, would you stop caring for it in the meantime?

If I chose to have a baby I would plan to look after it. I would not have a baby and plan to put it up for adoption. In my opinion that would be a stupid and pointless thing to do.

You didn't choose to have the baby. Now answer the question properly.

If you choose life in both of those situations, why would you not choose life in the case of a fetus? And if you say, "it's my body, my choice," then I reply, "it's only nine months, suck it up."

I don't value the life of cats at all. I value my own life and the quality of my life so will not go through pregnancy until I actually want children. It is pointless to go through pregnancy if you don't want a child. Why would someone else having an abortion bother you? How are you effected?

*affected

"Effected" means to create the effect; "affected" means to experience the effect.

You are a clear example of why I don't condone abortion. Depriving the fetus of life because it inconveniences you is an inherently selfish act. There are times when putting yourself first is justified, such as if the pregnancy would kill you, but terminating because you don't want the hassle or the stretch marks is an utterly shallow approach to the matter.

There are many horrible things in this world that don't directly affect me. I can regard them as distasteful.

We don't farm pigs to give them long lives. We farm them to eat them. Farms aren't zoos and livestock aren't pets, though obviously pigs can be kept for those purposes as well.

Women who have sex usually don't want to get pregnant. It's not usually part of the plan. Having fun is usually the plan.

Completely irrelevant to pig farming, but I'll respond.

Your argument fails basic sex-ed. Sex is primarily reproductive in nature, which is why we use birth control to prevent pregnancy. Abstinence is the only 100% effective means of birth control. If you have sex, you take the risk of pregnancy; failure to consider or prepare for the risk doesn't get you out of it, it just makes you careless and stupid.

I don't eat baby pigs.

So you don't eat pork?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Piglets are slaughtered at between 6 and 12 weeks.

You are obviously ignorant of agricultural practices. It's also strange why you think killing adult pigs is ok but not piglets.

Yes, I was ignorant of piglet slaughter. Thank you for sharing the information. I will do more research to see if my dietary practices need revision.

I still maintain the principle that killing baby animals is abhorrent.

Laws are neccessary for a variety of reasons. Damaging the lives of women is a bad idea and therefore its right that abortion is legal.

It's only nine months, suck it up.

Not happy, but I realize that I'm not getting a say in the matter regardless. Put it to a vote and I may change my tune.

In my country the vote would be around 4 to 1 in favour of supporting women's reproductive rights.

Good for you.

I don't think we should outlaw abortion entirely: it should definitely be allowed if the mother's life is at risk or the child is severely deformed (I'd sacrifice my life if I was the mother, but I can't insist that other people sacrifice theirs).

So you would force rape victims to endure pregnancy?

Being raped doesn't justify the death of the innocent child. The only person who should die is the rapist.

Why would you choose to needlessly die? If the foetus is still in the womb it would die anyway.

No, this is assuming that the child would survive. If not, then the sacrifice would indeed be pointless.

Better question: why is it less evil than killing a newborn baby? That's where I anchor my views on the matter.

Because a baby is more developed than a foetus.

So? Adults are more developed than children, but we don't regard infanticide as a lesser crime on those grounds.

Not familiar with that part, but it sounds plausible. Can you cite the relevant passage?

If Yawheh is omnipotent and omniscient as the bible claims obviously he chooses to cause every natural abortion to happen.

That's fridge logic, not an actual example.

It's dogmatic. Dogma is bad because it excludes challenge and nuance, and those two things are what life is all about.

I'm open to changing my mind if it's proved my opinions are wrong. That occasionally happens but not very often.

I don't believe you're open-minded and your assertion of it makes me even more skeptical. What's really telling is the "occasionally" part, which indicates changing your mind is the exception rather than the norm.
Chloe8
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10/2/2016 8:04:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/1/2016 11:25:24 PM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 10/1/2016 2:00:14 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/27/2016 1:34:46 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
That we kill animals because meat tastes good.

We also kill them for sport, because they may be a danger or because they may be considered pests.

I don't condone killing for sport. Self-defense and environmental protection are separate issues. If I caught an adult human trying to burn down a forest, you can bet I'd kill them too.

I see no problem with killing animals for sport. It's no different to killing them for food. Obviously it's perfectly reasonable to kill animals if they are posing a danger to humans or are pests causing environmental or economic harm.

If you have a basket of kittens that you don't want, would you give them away or drown them in the bath?

Most likely no one would want them. I really wouldn't care if they were killed. Animals are killed all the time, why care about a few cats.

You're not a cat-person, I take it.

I don't have anything against cats but don't value their lives any more than any other animal.

If you have a newborn baby that you plan to adopt out, would you stop caring for it in the meantime?

If I chose to have a baby I would plan to look after it. I would not have a baby and plan to put it up for adoption. In my opinion that would be a stupid and pointless thing to do.

You didn't choose to have the baby. Now answer the question properly.

Unless I chose to have the baby I would not end up with one. It's a fundamentally flawed question. In no circumstances is it possible for me to end up in that position unless I choose to have the baby in the first place. Obviously if i chose to have the baby I would want the baby and would not want to give it up for adoption.

You are a clear example of why I don't condone abortion. Depriving the fetus of life because it inconveniences you is an inherently selfish act. There are times when putting yourself first is justified, such as if the pregnancy would kill you, but terminating because you don't want the hassle or the stretch marks is an utterly shallow approach to the matter.

Do you realize how inconvenient unwanted pregnancies can be for women?

Not only do you have to go through the unwanted pregnancy for nine months but you are stigmatized socially, have to take time out of education and/or work and have to decide what to do with the baby after you go through childbirth.

There are many horrible things in this world that don't directly affect me. I can regard them as distasteful.

We don't farm pigs to give them long lives. We farm them to eat them. Farms aren't zoos and livestock aren't pets, though obviously pigs can be kept for those purposes as well.

Women who have sex usually don't want to get pregnant. It's not usually part of the plan. Having fun is usually the plan.

Completely irrelevant to pig farming, but I'll respond.

It's relevant because I'm comparing how the intention of pig farming is usually to produce meat while the intention of having sex is usually to enjoy the physical and psychological pleasure from the activity.

Your argument fails basic sex-ed. Sex is primarily reproductive in nature, which is why we use birth control to prevent pregnancy. Abstinence is the only 100% effective means of birth control. If you have sex, you take the risk of pregnancy; failure to consider or prepare for the risk doesn't get you out of it, it just makes you careless and stupid.

Let's be realistic here. Most people of reproductive age enjoy having sex. The majority of people do not want any children to result from sexual intercourse apart from select periods of time when they want to start a family. The majority of cases of humans having sexual intercourse is not done for reproductive purposes. The reason it is pleasurable is to cause reproduction. As intelligent creatures we can use contraception to prevent this happening. Obviously it's advisable to use contraception but the reality is it does not always work and people are not always responsible enough to use contraception.

I don't eat baby pigs.

So you don't eat pork?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Piglets are slaughtered at between 6 and 12 weeks.

You are obviously ignorant of agricultural practices. It's also strange why you think killing adult pigs is ok but not piglets.

Yes, I was ignorant of piglet slaughter. Thank you for sharing the information. I will do more research to see if my dietary practices need revision.

Have you ever wondered why sheep meat is called lamb?

If you didn't know lamb is the word for a baby sheep.

Did you know chickens are fattened in intensive facilities and slaughtered at 6 weeks of age?

I still maintain the principle that killing baby animals is abhorrent.

Well I suggest you do a lot more research. Most animals killed for meat are not fully mature.

Laws are neccessary for a variety of reasons. Damaging the lives of women is a bad idea and therefore its right that abortion is legal.

It's only nine months, suck it up.

It's a very silly thing to want to force someone else to do something they don't want to do. Their body, their business.

Not happy, but I realize that I'm not getting a say in the matter regardless. Put it to a vote and I may change my tune.

In my country the vote would be around 4 to 1 in favour of supporting women's reproductive rights.

Good for you.

It is indeed.

I don't think we should outlaw abortion entirely: it should definitely be allowed if the mother's life is at risk or the child is severely deformed (I'd sacrifice my life if I was the mother, but I can't insist that other people sacrifice theirs).

So you would force rape victims to endure pregnancy?

Being raped doesn't justify the death of the innocent child. The only person who should die is the rapist.

The death penalty should be enforced in some cases of rape I agree. It's disgusting though that you would want to punish rape victims by forcing them to endure 9 months of unwanted pregnancy and then give birth to the rapists child. Shame on you. Rape victims should not be punished they should be supported.

Because a baby is more developed than a foetus.

So? Adults are more developed than children, but we don't regard infanticide as a lesser crime on those grounds.

Children are far more developed than fetuses. A human fetus is no different to any other mammal fetus.

Not familiar with that part, but it sounds plausible. Can you cite the relevant passage?

If Yawheh is omnipotent and omniscient as the bible claims obviously he chooses to cause every natural abortion to happen.

That's fridge logic, not an actual example.

It's logic.

It's dogmatic. Dogma is bad because it excludes challenge and nuance, and those two things are what life is all about.

I'm open to changing my mind if it's proved my opinions are wrong. That occasionally happens but not very often.

I don't believe you're open-minded and your assertion of it makes me even more skeptical. What's really telling is the "occasionally" part, which indicates changing your mind is the exception rather than the norm.

My opinions are rarely proved wrong because I usually get it right when I initially form the opinion. If you do that there is no reason to change your mind about things
Chloe8
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10/2/2016 9:22:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/1/2016 2:58:02 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
At 10/1/2016 2:00:14 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/27/2016 1:34:46 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:48:22 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:36:26 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Animals are yummy.

Your point is?

That we kill animals because meat tastes good.

We also kill them for sport, because they may be a danger or because they may be considered pests.

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Pigs are destined for food. If they weren't, we wouldn't breed them.

That's true. If a child is not wanted why allow a human foetus to develop?

If you have a basket of kittens that you don't want, would you give them away or drown them in the bath?

Most likely no one would want them. I really wouldn't care if they were killed. Animals are killed all the time, why care about a few cats.

If you have a newborn baby that you plan to adopt out, would you stop caring for it in the meantime?

If I chose to have a baby I would plan to look after it. I would not have a baby and plan to put it up for adoption. In my opinion that would be a stupid and pointless thing to do.

If you choose life in both of those situations, why would you not choose life in the case of a fetus? And if you say, "it's my body, my choice," then I reply, "it's only nine months, suck it up."

I don't value the life of cats at all. I value my own life and the quality of my life so will not go through pregnancy until I actually want children. It is pointless to go through pregnancy if you don't want a child. Why would someone else having an abortion bother you? How are you effected?

Fetuses are destined for personhood. Aborting them denies them their destiny.

A pig would lead a happy life as a pig if allowed to live a natural lifespan.

We don't farm pigs to give them long lives. We farm them to eat them. Farms aren't zoos and livestock aren't pets, though obviously pigs can be kept for those purposes as well.

Women who have sex usually don't want to get pregnant. It's not usually part of the plan. Having fun is usually the plan.

Cognitive development has nothing to do with it.

For the record, I find it just as repugnant to abort piglets.

Why?

Especially hypocritical when you acknowledge you like the taste of pigs.

I don't eat baby pigs.

So you don't eat pork?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Piglets are slaughtered at between 6 and 12 weeks.

You are obviously ignorant of agricultural practices. It's also strange why you think killing adult pigs is ok but not piglets.

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others?

For the most part, I don't, because I recognize that abortion is a complicated subject and my views are in the minority. That said, we impose opinions on others all the time; that's essentially the point of having laws.

Laws are neccessary for a variety of reasons. Damaging the lives of women is a bad idea and therefore its right that abortion is legal.

So you would be happy to allow people to choose to have abortions?

Not happy, but I realize that I'm not getting a say in the matter regardless. Put it to a vote and I may change my tune.

In my country the vote would be around 4 to 1 in favour of supporting women's reproductive rights.

I don't think we should outlaw abortion entirely: it should definitely be allowed if the mother's life is at risk or the child is severely deformed (I'd sacrifice my life if I was the mother, but I can't insist that other people sacrifice theirs).

So you would force rape victims to endure pregnancy?

Why would you choose to needlessly die? If the foetus is still in the womb it would die anyway.

You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal,

This happens all the time.

Really?

What rock have you been living under?

yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

Not okay, just a lesser evil than abortion.

Why is abortion evil?

Better question: why is it less evil than killing a
As mere male I have no grounds to oppose. Well not legally anyway.
I don't oppose abortion .
But as your all about fairness, do you think a male that opposes abortion should be able to have some kind of say in it, by law ?
Maybe they can sue for damages , or if they can prove worthiness or something maybe they can be solely responsible for the child with the women waiving her rights to the child. And in this if the women was to die during the birth from complications they will be held responsible and dealt with accordingly. There is alot to work out I know, But do you think one day rights for males should be put in place ?
I know having a child is alot of work for the women , like pretty much all the work. But like in some divorce procedures , things getting split 50/50 . When one of the t

The man is not the one who is actually pregnant. He has no right to restrict or control the reproductive rights of a woman even if he is the father of a foetus that a woman chooses to abort. If he has a problem with abortion them he should have abstained from sex in the first place. It was his choice to do that and he must be prepared to face the possibility of pregnancy and the woman choosing to have an abortion.
Chloe8
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10/2/2016 9:28:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/27/2016 12:59:11 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:38:59 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:29:28 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 10:51:52 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 12:08:55 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/21/2016 9:48:55 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/21/2016 8:44:02 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

animals can never be self aware

A foetus is not self aware either.

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

never heard of PETA? lots of animal rights have cause violence over the issue

I don't see any vegetarians calling a vet a murderer for giving a dog an abortion.

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?

I don't want to pay for it, so it shouldn't be paid for by tax money except for the most extreme cases, it's dangerous on a variety of levels for the mother, there's lots of people willing to adopt, various forms of birth control are available, including (drum roll please) SELF CONTROL!!!!! oh no personal responsibility say it ain't so.

Yes I think if someone is an adult and has means to afford it they should pay for abortions.

Obviously using birth control is advisable but unfortunately unintended pregnancies happen.

The reality Is there is a big shortage of foster parents and the woman would then have to go through with 9 months of unwanted pregnancy.

too bad, who chose to have sex? how traumatic physically and emotionally can an abortion be? Like all negative behavior if you reduce the consequences to something very minor, not only will it continue and get worse. I know a woman who had 10 abortions, her insurance (medicare, yes medicare) told her they were not going to pay for another. So let's make it a 1 time life benefit, aside from rape you get one get out of free jail card, that's it.

No it should be a case of you paying for your own abortions if and when you need them unless you are a child, someone with special needs or someone unable to afford abortions. In the long term the cost of an abortion is negligible when compared to the cost of raising a child in care homes.

People choose to have sex for a variety of reasons but mainly due to the pleasure of the activity and/ or the desire to reproduce.

do you honestly believe that the % who have abortions don't end up have a child in a fatherless home isn't very high, so it may be delaying it, but we pay for it eventually.

What point are you making here?

People who have abortions will not neccessarily become single parents.

well you said " In the long term the cost of an abortion is negligible when compared to the cost of raising a child in care homes." so you brought up cost, I say a high % will end up in that boat anyway so....thought it was pretty clear...they will raise a child alone on welfare, look at what demographic has the highest rate of abortions.

It costs 200, 000 pounds a year to keep a child in a care home in the UK. The standard of care is woefully inadequate as this article demonstrates.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

It's a fact the cost of an abortion is nothing in comparison to raising children in care. Abortion also helps prevent the single parent situation. Each aborted child is one less in care or in a single parent household. Incidentally it's much cheaper to raise children on welfare in single parent households than in care homes.
Chloe8
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10/2/2016 9:42:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/27/2016 12:25:17 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/27/2016 12:10:13 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 11:37:52 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:58:14 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 11:36:10 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Not all suicides are from mental or physical illness. Many cultures regard shame and dishonor to family and self as suicide necessary.

You are talking about honour killings or mentally ill people committing suicide.

I too was an atheist for 30 years and prior to stopping to label myself, I grew to the conclusion that abortion FOR convenience isn't right.

Why do you think you have the right to force others to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

And I can tell this thread was started by a late teen early 20 something idealist who thinks they have everything figured out but will change their viewpoints on many subjects over the coming years... And it's quite comical to think back to myself at that age with similar viewpoints and how much life experience alters that idealist bs.

You changing your mind about issues demonstrates your uncertainty and indecision. Claiming I will also do so in the future to such an extent is unsubstantiated and unknowable. What I can say is I have changed my mind about very little in recent years. I'm not an idealist, I'm a realist. You making degrading statements about my age suggests nothing more than jealousy and immaturity on your behalf and regrets over previous views you held and how frequently your opinions change.

I'm a realist... the classic non-sensical argument. lol


without blasting your whole contention apart... no, i wasn't talking about honor killings (we are in america, spell the word in american, not english and linguists did separate the languages from each other when you were like 2).

I'm from the UK and will spell the word correctly in the true form of the English language as is my right. Just as you are entitled to use the American version of the language originating in MY country.

bringing dishonor and shame in many east Asian, pacific islander, and a few of the meso american cultures, suicide was expected.

Show me examples of this happening in the 21st century on a significant scale.

honor killings as you are referring are a muslim phenomena and they aren't suicide, they are murder.

That's true. HONOUR killings are murder.

the mentally ill were already excluded from the topic.

since no where did i indicate that abortion should be illegal, but that it's not 'right', how is that 'pushing' a belief? seems you are hypersensitive to the subject. did you just abort twins or something? have a train ran on you by a bunch of drunk frat guy while you were passed out and had to use ru 486? lol

So you accept it's unacceptable to restrict women's reproductive rights?

oh, i can get much more blunt if you choose to continue your self righteous bs instead of just accepting some people, not me per se, but many find abortion abhorrent and they are completely within the realms of normalcy for having that notion... just as the whole 'it's my body and i can do what i want to' is also normal. just leave the self righteous bs behind because, as stated, you are too damn young and naive to truly have an idea of what will occur in your life over the next 20 years. will you change your mind? personally, i could give 2 shlts. have those of us that are double or triple your age heard your silly contention before? AD NAUSEUM. it's not a novel concept.

Hahaha threatening me with abusive messages online. What a mature person you are.

I unashamedly take an aggressive stance against people who deny women's reproductive rights. I can assure you I will hold this position for the duration of my life. Using my age as an argument against my views is simply devoid of logic and is no more than a petty personal attack.

I attack beliefs and not people. I'm here to argue about intellectual topics not make friends

none of what i stated was a 'personal attack'. it was strictly observation and, being i'm not the only one that has noticed your self righteous attitude, the contention stands.

The reality is it was a personal attack based around discrimination on the grounds of age. Your welcome to make attacks I find them entertaining.

normally i wouldn't use wiki but it was the first thing up, has current stats for japan, and once again refutes your contention on suicide do to shame in current society.

These people are essentially mentally ill. They needed medical treatment to help them overcome the irrational feelings of shame they experienced and their irrational over reaction to that shame.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

so, you don't like aggressive counters... aggressive contentions receive aggressive counters. get over it.

I don't mind aggressive responses. They are usually interesting to read.

i'm actually glad you won't change your mind on anything... especially this subject. and that's not a cheap shot saying you shouldn't procreate. now, if you were still a uk citizen and critiquing our laws, then you should be mocked, ridiculed, and met with derision. but, since you are a legal resident??? by all means, ru-486 away. you'll find out why later in life when those you know who have went through the procedure are racked with remorse.

I've never used ru-486 and don't plan to unless it's neccessary. I'm a UK resident and citizen. Most people in the UK share my opinion on this issue.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk...

Collectively we mock, ridicule and ruthlessly expose the views of those who support restricting women's reproductive rights.
Chloe8
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10/2/2016 10:01:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2016 11:46:15 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:36:24 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:45:56 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?

I don't usually oppose it, persay, and usually try to leave religion out of that decision, but if I had to base my answer on something, I'd think of a Fahrenheit 451 example. I think the idea of abortion is fine if the person giving birth is in danger of losing her life, so this usually pertains to younger girls. If it's a matter of rape, that's another thing where I'd say the idea of abortion is reasonable.

However, if it's just because you don't want a kid, but you were a consenting adult, then that's not a good enough reason for me. The idea of aborting a child purely because you don't want it doesn't appeal to me.

Another thing with the idea of abortion is that most women see it as black and white, which is either have the kid and raise it or abort it. There are other options, such as giving the child up for adoption, where they still get to live. This is mainly because the child doesn't really have a choice here. That, and I have a friend who is adopted, and if the thought of abortion hadn't been as unpopular as it was 16 years ago, he probably would have been aborted.

Why do you think you have a right to enforce your views on other people?
I literally only read this sentence and knew I really didn't want to deal with such a bullsh!t question, but I will anyway. You ASKED us "why do you oppose abortion", and I told you the situations in which I approve of it, and then gave a few other situations in which I oppose it. Your little question up there seriously just turned my opinion of you to a mixture of dust, and it was one sentence. Good job!

Yes I asked you why YOU think that YOU have the right to enforce your religion on others? But you didn't answer because the answer is your religious beliefs. Outlining the situations in which you think abortion is ok does not answer why you think you have a right to enforce your views on other people and what they do with their bodies.

If your so confident your god exists let him dish out the punishment after this life.

Do you accept all aborted fetuses go to heaven? If so having an abortion is the biggest sacrifice in Christianity. Condemning yourself to eternal torment to ensure your child does not have a chance to sin and follow you to hell.

If you claim Yawheh sends some fetuses to hell it's simply even more evidence of his evil nature.

I genuinely don't care what you think of me. I'm here to argue with people I disagree with not make friends.

"Why do you think you have a right to enforce your views on other people?" -- What kind of bullsh!t is that? You asked me a question, I answered with my opinion on the matter, and not once did I imply that I was forcing my views on people.

So you would not support legislation restricting women's reproductive rights?


If a woman does not want to go through nine months of pregnancy that is her choice and you should respect that.

I'm not gonna try and stop her if it's her final decision, but I do have an urge to discourage it. Whether or not she decides to do it is her final choice, but if it's simply because some woman had consented sex with someone and became pregnant, and then doesn't want it, then I find that to be rather unappealing and not a good reason. Does she absolutely positively want to go through with the abortion, then cool, she can do that. It doesn't mean that I will shame her.

I would support her right to make the decision that's best for her and support her from attacks from the fools who have been tricked into believing in a false religion created by bronze age tribesmen such as yourself who seek to enforce your barbaric bronze age ideas on others.
Chloe8
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10/2/2016 10:16:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/27/2016 12:25:12 AM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 9/26/2016 11:16:11 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:54:48 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?
That unborn baby will grow up to be a person who is capable of making moral judgements and choices. An animal, however, is just that . . . an animal.

But that's the future not the present. In the present both animal and foetus are indistinguishable.

It doesn't matter if it is currently not an intelligent life form. It will eventually grow to be one. A pig, on the other hand, will remain a mentally incompetent, moraless creature for the rest of its days.

An adult pig is far more intelligent than a foetus. It would be able to fear and sense danger and also show compassion to other pigs. For example adult pigs are capable of showing compassion to piglets such as allowing an unrelated piglet to eat from the same feed trough.

If you actually believe your religion is true there should be no reason to be concerned about the fate of the foetus. Abortion is the best thing possible for humans as it takes away the possibility to sin and guarantees entry to heaven for the foetus.

You see, animals are, in the very definition of the word, inferior to human beings. Would you rather save a person or an animal? Which one has more value? Harambe or the 3-year-old child stuck in the gorilla enclosure. The answer to this question should be obvious . . . even to an atheist, without using religious morals.

I would save the child.
Good. I'm glad we agree.
I agree its an obvious decision. Religion does not make people more likely to carry out heroic acts.
Does it? Well it certainly teaches that one should carry out heroic acts (i.e. feeding the poor, caring for the homeless, helping others when you can, etc.).

It also teaches you how to beat your slaves in an acceptable manner, how to kill male children in the event of war and how to check if the female children have engaged in sexual intercourse before deciding whether to murder them or use them as sex slaves.

Show me some evidence backing your claim your false religion increases the likelihood of someone carrying out heroic acts.

Evolution has given humanity the benefit, and we are by far the superior species.

In terms of cognitive ability that's certainly true.
Yes, and cognitive ability pretty much determines the superiority of a species.
From technology, to agriculture, to art, we excel in all areas.

In other words we are an intelligent life form and animals are not.
Exactly.
Homo sapiens are of higher value than animals and shouldn't be compared to a mere pig.

Regardless, as a human being yourself, wouldn't you value your own species above others?

Yes I would. My point is though a foetus has more in common with animals in terms of cognitive development than adult humans.
Although a fetus will develop into an intelligent, mature human being. An animal, like I said before, will not and never will.

If something is not even capable of knowing it exists why should it be treated in the same way as humans with a more advanced level of cognitive development?
Vaarka
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10/2/2016 10:29:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/2/2016 10:01:46 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 11:46:15 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 9/26/2016 10:36:24 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:45:56 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 9/21/2016 7:37:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
But find it ok to kill animals?

Why does something's potential make it deserving of special protection when it's current level of cognitive development is no different to any mammal at a similar early stage of development, and far lower than intelligent mammals regularly killed for human consumption such as pigs?

Even if you personally don't think abortion is acceptable why do you want to impose your opinion on others? You don't see vegetarians campaigning for laws convicting people of a criminal offence for killing an animal, yet you think its ok to force women to go through nine months of pregnancy against their will?

In my opinion objection to abortion is almost exclusively due to people's religious beliefs. Why enforce your views on people who don't believe in your religion or don't interpret it's teaching in the same way? If your so sure your god/ god's exist/s let him/them carry out any punishment.

Many people however lie and claim their objection to abortion is not based on their religious beliefs but on morals or ethics. Are you one of them? Or are you open with accepting its your belief in a religion that is the basis for opposing women's reproductive rights?

I don't usually oppose it, persay, and usually try to leave religion out of that decision, but if I had to base my answer on something, I'd think of a Fahrenheit 451 example. I think the idea of abortion is fine if the person giving birth is in danger of losing her life, so this usually pertains to younger girls. If it's a matter of rape, that's another thing where I'd say the idea of abortion is reasonable.

However, if it's just because you don't want a kid, but you were a consenting adult, then that's not a good enough reason for me. The idea of aborting a child purely because you don't want it doesn't appeal to me.

Another thing with the idea of abortion is that most women see it as black and white, which is either have the kid and raise it or abort it. There are other options, such as giving the child up for adoption, where they still get to live. This is mainly because the child doesn't really have a choice here. That, and I have a friend who is adopted, and if the thought of abortion hadn't been as unpopular as it was 16 years ago, he probably would have been aborted.

Why do you think you have a right to enforce your views on other people?
I literally only read this sentence and knew I really didn't want to deal with such a bullsh!t question, but I will anyway. You ASKED us "why do you oppose abortion", and I told you the situations in which I approve of it, and then gave a few other situations in which I oppose it. Your little question up there seriously just turned my opinion of you to a mixture of dust, and it was one sentence. Good job!

Yes I asked you why YOU think that YOU have the right to enforce your religion on others? But you didn't answer because the answer is your religious beliefs. Outlining the situations in which you think abortion is ok does not answer why you think you have a right to enforce your views on other people and what they do with their bodies.

If your so confident your god exists let him dish out the punishment after this life.

Do you accept all aborted fetuses go to heaven? If so having an abortion is the biggest sacrifice in Christianity. Condemning yourself to eternal torment to ensure your child does not have a chance to sin and follow you to hell.

If you claim Yawheh sends some fetuses to hell it's simply even more evidence of his evil nature.

I genuinely don't care what you think of me. I'm here to argue with people I disagree with not make friends.
I'd like to point out that religion has no influence with my opinion on this matter. To put it simply for you:
IMO, abortion is justified when the person giving birth is either likely or guaranteed to not survive (or vice versa...aka if the baby is unlikely to survive), or in the case of something such as rape and the trauma it may cause.
IMO, abortion is not justified if the person is doing it simply because having a baby is inconvenient. For example, if a woman has consented sexual intercourse, especially unprotected, and then becomes pregnant, then I do not believe it would be necessarily justified for her to abort it simply because she doesn't want the kid.

And ONCE AGAIN, I'd like to say that whether or not if I find it justified will not make me forcibly stop her. If the woman wants the abortion, then she can go right ahead.

"Why do you think you have a right to enforce your views on other people?" -- What kind of bullsh!t is that? You asked me a question, I answered with my opinion on the matter, and not once did I imply that I was forcing my views on people.

So you would not support legislation restricting women's reproductive rights?
That's not what I said. I gave my opinion on the matter, and then said that if the woman is absolutely sure she doesn't want to go through with the pregnancy, then that is her choice and I won't try to stop her.


If a woman does not want to go through nine months of pregnancy that is her choice and you should respect that.

I'm not gonna try and stop her if it's her final decision, but I do have an urge to discourage it. Whether or not she decides to do it is her final choice, but if it's simply because some woman had consented sex with someone and became pregnant, and then doesn't want it, then I find that to be rather unappealing and not a good reason. Does she absolutely positively want to go through with the abortion, then cool, she can do that. It doesn't mean that I will shame her.

I would support her right to make the decision that's best for her and support her from attacks from the fools who have been tricked into believing in a false religion created by bronze age tribesmen such as yourself who seek to enforce your barbaric bronze age ideas on others.

A majority of these people include old people at cons and people who grew up in extremely religious environments, in which they were told more of what to believe instead of how to believe. I disapprove of people who would act this way, but whether or not they exist doesn't influence my opinions on the matter.
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Chloe8
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10/2/2016 10:43:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'd like to point out that religion has no influence with my opinion on this matter. To put it simply for you:

You may claim that but if you genuinely believe in Christianity it has likely influenced your views even if your not aware of it. Unless you admit your a half hearted cultural Christian who knows nothing about the religion.

IMO, abortion is justified when the person giving birth is either likely or guaranteed to not survive (or vice versa...aka if the baby is unlikely to survive), or in the case of something such as rape and the trauma it may cause.
IMO, abortion is not justified if the person is doing it simply because having a baby is inconvenient. For example, if a woman has consented sexual intercourse, especially unprotected, and then becomes pregnant, then I do not believe it would be necessarily justified for her to abort it simply because she doesn't want the kid.

And ONCE AGAIN, I'd like to say that whether or not if I find it justified will not make me forcibly stop her. If the woman wants the abortion, then she can go right ahead.

So you would oppose legislation restricting women's reproductive rights?

You would let people have the right to choose what to do with their bodies?

"Why do you think you have a right to enforce your views on other people?" -- What kind of bullsh!t is that? You asked me a question, I answered with my opinion on the matter, and not once did I imply that I was forcing my views on people.

So you would not support legislation restricting women's reproductive rights?
That's not what I said. I gave my opinion on the matter, and then said that if the woman is absolutely sure she doesn't want to go through with the pregnancy, then that is her choice and I won't try to stop her.

So you will agree with me that it's unfair to have legislation restricting women's reproductive rights?


If a woman does not want to go through nine months of pregnancy that is her choice and you should respect that.

I'm not gonna try and stop her if it's her final decision, but I do have an urge to discourage it. Whether or not she decides to do it is her final choice, but if it's simply because some woman had consented sex with someone and became pregnant, and then doesn't want it, then I find that to be rather unappealing and not a good reason. Does she absolutely positively want to go through with the abortion, then cool, she can do that. It doesn't mean that I will shame her.

I would support her right to make the decision that's best for her and support her from attacks from the fools who have been tricked into believing in a false religion created by bronze age tribesmen such as yourself who seek to enforce your barbaric bronze age ideas on others.

A majority of these people include old people at cons and people who grew up in extremely religious environments, in which they were told more of what to believe instead of how to believe. I disapprove of people who would act this way, but whether or not they exist doesn't influence my opinions on the matter.

There are relatively few of these people in the UK thankfully. However there are many in the USA and on this site in particular.

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