Opinion Question
Argument
Posted by: smilinbobs64

If you would read the Bible then you would see.

  Some people say that the bible is a random book that some person wrote and that it is all fake. However the bible is like the constitution of the United States in the way that they are both historical documents. If the Bible is fake and God is not real then why are so many people in the world going to church to praise his name and learn more about him?
MitchV says2019-07-25T16:03:08.663
@Mr_Box,
"If the Bible is fake and God is not real then why are so many people in the world going to church to praise his name and learn more about him? "
First off, That is ad populum (a statement that must be true because many/most believe it is). Yet another overwhelmingly popular belief was that the sun went round the earth. Scholars at the time mocked any who proposed otherwise. Thing is, This belief also came from the bible as it said as much. To say different was considered blasphemy that could had severe penalties including being put to death. Still, That did not stop opposing theories from coming to light. Even Galileo was put under house arrest and had a gag order that prevented him from teaching it. One big issue with ad populum arguments is that it claims facts change based on popular opinion. If an opposing belief became more popular like the Islamic faith, Would that disprove the Christian faith?
Secondly, There is a good reason why so many believe in Christianity. It was basically forced down the throats of everyone and gave a huge promise of eternal bliss. Those that refused to believe this story tended to see the other side of missionaries as it was said that they traveled with a bible in one hand and a sword in the other. Believe or die. An idea becomes very popular with that kind of incentive.
Lastly, The bit about so many praising god. This is not the case for many/most Christians as they tend to pray to or praise Jesus, Mary, Or even other biblical persons and saints. Look at all the churches with statues and crucifixes that people actually pray to. Are they or do they represent God? Nope. Funny thing is, The first few commandments forbid making graven images and praying to other before god. Statues and crucifixes are graven images and people pray to them before god. In his own house with the clergies blessing. A typical punishment for breaking a commandment is to actually pray to Mary (Hail Mary) and not God. Thing is, Even other Christians can't get prayer right as they defy Jesus when they pray in public places like church. Just read the part before the lords prayer and it says just that. Really, How messed up are most/all Christians?
smilinbobs64 says2019-07-26T00:48:16.940
If you study the Bible you would learn that it was written piece by piece over a vast span of time by many authors. The texts were reviewed through the ages and modifications were made along the way. It is far from being like the constitution of the USA, Which is a historical document. The Biblical texts are a collections of folk tales, Myths, Historical references, Gods, Demigods, Legends, And historical figures all mixed together to create a religious belief.
As for the reason so many people believe it was forced on the Roman Empire and form there forced on all of the conquered territories around the world. Children are brainwashed into believing that the religious beliefs of their parents are real. It perpetuates a cycle. The only way out of the cycle is independent study of religion. I was a christian until I began to study what the Biblical texts really said.
Knight_Dragon says2019-07-26T06:52:06.697
"I was a christian until I began to study what the Biblical texts really said. " Are you sure?
smilinbobs64 says2019-07-27T02:34:05.743
I am 100% sure that the God who is written about in the Torah, Quran, And Bible. Is made up by a group of people who wished to control and benefit from the weaker minded fearful people.
Knight_Dragon says2019-07-27T03:08:51.927
@smilinbobs64
"Is made up by a group of people who wished to control and benefit from the weaker minded fearful people. "
No evidence
smilinbobs64 says2019-07-27T17:06:57.373
In the Old Testament read the chapters about ritual animal sacrifices and food offerings. (there are many) you will understand how by using superstitious belief of the weaker minded, The religious leaders were able to always have the best food without toil. As time went on the religious leaders (in the name of God) would conquer others to steal the wealth of other nations. The followers (weaker minded) would all give a percentage of all they had to the religious leaders. It was so successful that for hundreds of years the Catholic church was the wealthiest entity in the world. By using the idea of an unseen all powerful being that will punish you the religious leaders for years had the power to do anything they wanted and the wealth of the world.
MitchV says2019-07-28T16:19:21.710
@smilinbobs64,

"If you study the Bible you would learn that it was written piece by piece over a vast span of time by many authors. "
Actually, The authors of the bible lived around 600 years from each other. Some authors penned many books of it like Moses yet others focused on a very short time window around the time of Jesus's ministries and told very similar stories. You can tell the gospels are written by unique viewpoints as they have some differences but agree on most details. This similar yet different testimony adds to it's credibility as honest eye witnesses will always tell very similar stories with slight variations due to their personal perspective.
I am not saying that I believe in any of they mystical events, After all, I'm an atheist. Just that Jesus Christ was probably a real person. By "real person" I mean a real human and not a supernatural being.

As a former Christian myself, Just reading the bible will not change a persons mind unless they approach the subject of god from a neutral point of view. That god's may or may not exist. It's only from that perspective that you can figure out for yourself if they do, Do not, Or could. Obviously I concluded that they do not but what others view may differ.
As far as how various religions came into existence, I doubt if very many came from greed or power but out of faulty logic. A common belief is that early man was nomadic but over time groups broke off and settled various areas. In this process, They developed homes, Figured out how to grow crops, And raise livestock. At this point, Mankind knew that he was a higher life forms as he understood so much of the natural world and could create so much in his world. Problem was, There was still so much about the world that he didn't understand and did not create so to his logic, There must be an even higher lifeforms than him. A. K. A. A god(s). Mankind always questions the world around him but sometimes they come up with the wrong answer. Because they all arrived with similar answers means they followed the same logic. You may also notice that the god(s) differ in ways unique to their area. This shows that they were formed by individual groups. What religions did with the base belief may be different but many like those of the Native Americans never had much for tithing so greed and power would not have played a role in them. Most they tended to do was dance for or make wooden statues of them.

If Christianity was formed out of greed, It makes no sense that they would separate themselves from the cash cow of the Jewish state at the time. They could have been treated like royalty but chose to travel like drifters. They could have been preaching to the wealthy in lavish synagogues but preached to the poor on vacant hillsides. Granted, Later generations may have taken advantage of the growing numbers but it doesn't look like it got started out of greed.
smilinbobs64 says2019-08-06T02:39:48.663
I have studied the Bible and Torah for many years and you definitely don't understand it's nature and purpose. In your defense you have not spent the foolish amount of time that I have on the subject. As for Christianity not about power and wealth I would like to just leave you with this fact for hundreds of years the Catholic church had world domination and was the wealthiest entity in the world. It was started as an alternative to the corrupt Jewish state in the Roman Empire but like all things. Power Corrupts and it didn't take long before greed and the lust for power took control of the Catholic Church
MitchV says2019-08-06T08:28:13.993
@smilinbobs64,
I grew up in a highly religious home. Where other kids got mother goose bedtime stories, I got biblical stories right out of the bible. Where other kids went family trips or had other family outings after church, I went to Sunday School. Prayer before meals and bedtime was standard practice/routine. I can't speak about the Torah but I didn't have to study Christianity, I lived it. I didn't become atheist out of rebellion or because other convinced me but out of my own analysis of the existence of gods using a neutral point of view. It is also with a neutral view that I made logical conclusions on how various religions came to exist.
Thing is, The Bible nor Torah have a nature or purpose as they are just books. People who wrote or used them are a different story. As far as those who created religions, Some like the used the idea of their gods to control the population as it was the leadership these beliefs stemmed from. In other religions like Abrahamic beliefs, The belief of a god came from primitive logic being applied to the world around them. This is a logical conclusion based on how the power of the gods is the explanation of all things that were unknown at the time.
"As for Christianity not about power and wealth. . . It was started as an alternative to the corrupt Jewish state in the Roman Empire"
Tho the authors and the main subject (Jesus) of the New Testament may not have been looking for wealth, They obviously were looking for power to lead people away from Judaism as they were or became leaders and authors of the religion to the point where they titled the books with their own names as part of the title. Clearly they did this knowing that it would give them or their words power. The idea that it was some kind of "alternative" is not logical as it demonized the Jewish faith. An "alternative" to a corrupt Jewish state would be for people to believe in the Jewish faith without financially supporting the Jewish state. For instance, For a while after moving out on my own, I didn't attend church but still had my faith and studied the bible on my own. That is an alternative to an organized Christian faith and does not directly/indirectly oppose the views of Christianity. Claiming it as an "alternative" is like saying that Roman based religion was also a viable choice that a Jewish person could make.
"like all things. Power Corrupts and it didn't take long before greed and the lust for power took control of the Catholic Church"
Just like the Jewish state at the time so that makes them equal in being bad choices.
As far as why Christianity actually started, That depends on if your talking about Jesus, His disciples, Or those who became the first people who be considered Christian.
If we look at Jesus as a mortal man, He knew he was misleading others but may have had good intentions. According to the little we are told about his youth, He spent much of his time with the Jewish clergy so would likely know the inner workings and some of the tactics they would use to influence the population like using scientific knowledge as performing miracles.
If we look at his disciples, They may or may not have known it was an act.
As far as it's first members, They most likely believed everything they were told as good followers should.
What has become of the Christian faith since then is another story entirely.
smilinbobs64 says2019-08-07T20:51:43.123
MitchV you make certain assumptions which if we look at the evidence there is NO evidence to support. You make the assumption that the religious writings are not allegorical fiction. Since there are no historical accounts of Jesus. None of the four canonical Gospels names its own author, None of them claim to be eyewitness accounts or even to have spoken to eyewitness of Jesus. All are written in the third person and none of the authors tell us anything about themselves. All of the traditional ascriptions of authorship come from 2nd century tradition not first century tradition.
If you claim the Bible and Torah have no purpose know little of the Texts nor history. These are very methodically written and changed through the years to deceive and control the weaker minded population, And it worked, It still works today.
MitchV says2019-08-08T14:31:39.173
@smilinbobs64,
"You make the assumption that the religious writings are not allegorical fiction. "
You make the assumption that religious writings are allegorical fiction without evidence. I could simply dismiss it but I have provided evidence to the contrary. The old testament consists of a genetic lineage that includes some of it's authors. How can an author be related to characters that are to be seen as fictional? Clearly that is not logical. It's like implying your ancestors are mythical beings.
"Since there are no historical accounts of Jesus. "
Are you saying that Pontius Pilate didn't exist either? Even tho he's the best attested governor of Judaea, Few sources on his rule have survived. If little evidence of a prominent ruler existence exists then what are the odds are there of some upstart surviving? Would he have his scribes interview the common Jewish people who may have claimed to see miracles? Not likely as it would make no difference in his leadership. Tho they are from a bias source, Last time I checked the gospels were written by some of Jesus's followers and carry their names such as the Book/Gospels of Matthew. Of course, Even 50 years later, Some of the followers may have meet Jesus personally and it is their presence that other corroborating people site. Fact is, It likely that it would take about that time for a large enough group of followers would be made notable to people of other regions. A much smaller group (about 13) of relatively peaceful people would likely go unnoticed even by locals. It was only when the Jewish state at the time felt threatened that they took action to stop him. People from outside the region wouldn't even now he existed had it not been for his growing number of followers.
No matter if the authors name the books themselves or people down the line, Clearly people believed people in the gospels actually existed and not just allegorical figures. If you really studied the bible, Then you would know about books that were not included because they painted various people in poor light like the Book of Judas that creates the narrative the Jesus may have plotted his own capture so he would be fulfilling the prophesy in the Old Testament. Does that fit your allegory narrative?
Thing is, Jesus was known to tell allegoric tales. If the people were not suppose to believe he actually existed but was just an allegorical figure, Then how can they believe he spoke allegorical tales.
In the end, No matter if some allegorical tales existed at the time, You have no evidence to point that the Gospels were allegories and should not assume as such.
Knight_Dragon says2019-08-08T22:22:17.173
"Since there are no historical accounts of Jesus. "
Are you that stupid?
Knight_Dragon says2019-08-14T03:41:13.797
@smilinbobs64:
"Since there are no historical accounts of Jesus. "
Are you stupid?
smilinbobs64 says2019-08-14T09:12:18.743
There were 43 historians, And scribes who wrote extensively about what was happening in Judea and the Roman Empire from 5 BCE to 45 CE if the stories were true there would be at least an honorable mention of this Christ. Yet there is not one word the first historical mention is of Christians and that is around 100 CE. If you find any historian or scribe who wrote between 5 BCE to 45 CE that mentions The Christ or the Hebrew God coming to earth in human form you will be the first person to do so
smilinbobs64 says2019-08-15T01:11:10.393
@MitchV
One of the main differences between a historical account of a person such as Pontius Pilate is that authors such as Josephus and Philo who are known historians wrote of about Pontius Pilate but not Christ who were supposed to exist at the same time with the same level of fame according to the gospels. If we look at the way the Gospels are written we see how they discuss details like thoughts of the characters in the third person and supernatural events like fictional stories. If you read historical accounts they are descriptive of the events and actions not thoughts and magic.
ReyCola2 says2019-08-15T13:50:28.140
Smilinbobs,

I hope you understand that the God of the Bible has stood the test of time! , Look at his science accounts

Numerous cosmic facts found in the Bible that have since been proven by astronomers:
The shape of the earth
Isaiah 40:22a reads, "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth. . . " and, As any astronomy student knows, The earth appears as a circle in space because of its spherical shape. The creation of the horizon to separate light and darkness, As mentioned in Job 26:10 (NAS version), Also states that God "has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters. . . "; because the earth is round, The boundary must be a circle. [1]

The suspension of earth in space
"[H]e suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7). Despite this verse's poeticism, It does indicate that the earth does in fact float in space. Pictures taken in space have confirmed that the earth literally hangs upon nothing in the cosmos. The biblical truth of this fact is particularly interesting when one considers the beliefs of other peoples and religions as to how the earth was supported in space. For example, The Tartars believed that a giant bull supported the earth, While Vedic priests taught that twelve mighty pillars held up the planet; modern astronomy has since proven such beliefs inaccurate. [1]

The expansion of the heavens
Referring back to Isaiah 40:22, The second half of the verse tells that "He [God] stretches out the heavens like a canopy, And spreads them out like a tent to live in. " This verse directly implies that the universe is expanding and has increased in size since its creation. Astronomers discovered in the 1920's that nearly all the galaxy clusters were moving away from one another, Indicating that the entire cosmos is being stretched. Before this discovery, Secular scientists, And perhaps even some Christian scientists as well, Purported that the universe was infinite and completely unchanged. The accuracy of the Bible in presenting this idea in ancient times is truly remarkable! [1]

The age of the cosmos
Scripture teaches that God created the entire cosmos in six days (see Exodus 20:11), And the extensive genealogies and historical events documented in the Bible place this creation around 6, 000 years ago. The majority of secular scientists however, Adhere to the big bang theory which dates the age of the universe as billions and billions of years old. Although this theory is often taught as undeniable truth, Numerous astronomical evidences point to a much younger age of the solar system and the universe. [1]

God is great!
MitchV says2019-08-15T17:10:21.387
@smilinbobs64,

If we look at the way the Gospels are written we see how they discuss details like thoughts of the characters in the third person and supernatural events like fictional stories. If you read historical accounts they are descriptive of the events and actions not thoughts and magic.

"Pontius Pilate but not Christ who were supposed to exist at the same time with the same level of fame according to the gospels. "
Actually, To Pilate, Jesus would have been considered a nuisance and not worth mentioning. At best, He would just be one of many of the nameless who were counted as one of those sentenced to death. In the gospels, Pilot would be a note worthy person in relation to the death of their leader.
"Same level of fame" is subjective. Obviously a Roman official would be noteworthy in many nations for that reason alone. Jesus, On the other hand, Only had a small local following. Even the Jewish leaders would probably avoid even mentioning him as they would be more likely to deny he even existed. The only people that would be sure to know him by name would be his long time followers who spoke on his behalf after his death.
Writing from a third person perspective would be and still is common when telling someone's story. (biography not auto-biography) Supernatural events are also common in other religious beliefs like what we call mythology today. Does this mean that ancient Romans and Greeks didn't actually believe in their deities? Of course not. The even built temples in their names hoping to get favor from them. To claim that Jesus was just an allegory and not written as a real person is a poor attempt to avoid the truth.
Knight_Dragon says2019-08-15T22:23:13.937
@smilinbobs64
"6, 000 years ago"
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that.
ReyCola2 says2019-08-15T22:26:51.113
Kinght_dragon

When will you learn that God created the Earth 6000 years ago, He clearly created Adam and Eve in creation and the genenologies go back to 6000 years, Stop this madness!
MitchV says2019-08-16T14:37:19.130
@Knight_Dragon,

The 6, 000 year estimate is based on calculations done by religious scholars who used information in the bible like the ages of people in the bible's lineage like in Genesis 5 that tells how old each person was when they bore a child from Adam to Noah.
As far as the idea that the universe is only about 6, 000 years old, That is relatively easy to disprove as we have spotted entire galaxies over 13 billion light-years away. The distance we call a light-year is just as the name implies, The distance light travels in a year. This means the light from those distance galaxies left the surface of it's local stars over 13 billion years ago and is just being seen now. Because these distant stars that sent the light had to exist billions of years ago means that they and the universe must be at least that old.
ReyCola2 says2019-08-16T22:10:42.783
MitchV,

Distant Starlight does NOT disprove Biblical Creation. Do we really know that galaxies are so far away? Perhaps they are much closer, So the light really doesn’t travel very far. ”Any attempt to scientifically estimate the age of something will necessarily involve a number of assumptions. These can be assumptions about the starting conditions, Constancy of rates, Contamination of the system, And many others.
However, The techniques that astronomers use to measure cosmic distances are generally logical and scientifically sound. They do not rely on evolutionary assumptions about the past. Moreover, They are a part of observational science (as opposed to historical/origins science); they are testable and repeatable in the present. You could repeat the experiment to determine the distance to a star or galaxy, And you would get approximately the same answer. So we have good reason to believe that space really is very big. In fact, The amazing size of the universe brings glory to God (Psalm 19:1).

This is all ASSUMPTIONS you have made

the speed of light is not an “arbitrary” parameter. In other words, Changing the speed of light would cause other things to change as well, Such as the ratio of energy to mass in any system. This is a legitimate concern. The way in which the universal constants are connected is only partially understood. So, The impact of a changing speed of light on the universe and life on earth is not fully known. Some creation scientists are actively researching questions relating to the speed of light. Other creation scientists feel that the assumption of the constancy of the speed of light is probably reasonable and that the solution to distant starlight lies elsewhere.

Distant Starlight does NOT disprove the Bible!
MitchV says2019-08-17T16:52:34.103
@ReyCola2,

I was going to go through an exhausting explanation on how they measure the distance as well as how it is NOT making assumptions but using actual data for those calculations but it seems that you at least get that part.

"the speed of light is not an “arbitrary” parameter. "
That is right but your assumption after that is not. The speed of light is a constant. It can not be slowed or made faster. You may think that the distance to some of these stars is an example of God's greatness but if God created them them about 6, 000 years ago, We could only see ones closer than 6, 000 light years away. Any stars farther than that could not be seen as the light from them has not yet reached the earth. Tho new earth creationists may still deny these fact, There are also some old earth creationists that have come to accept it. It's like Galileo's theory of a heliocentric solar system. At first, He was discredited by those in his field for coming up with such a theory because the bible implied otherwise. Over time, His theory took hold and has been accepted by the vast majority of people, Religious or not. Despite that, There are still some people called the flat-earth society who even deny the earth is round based on the bible.
ReyCola2 says2019-08-17T20:04:06.503
No, The Speed of light could change with God and the light from planets could already reach Earth as God commmanded
ReyCola2 says2019-08-17T20:04:07.950
No, The Speed of light could change with God and the light from planets could already reach Earth as God commmanded
ReyCola2 says2019-08-17T20:04:11.477
No, The Speed of light could change with God and the light from planets could already reach Earth as God commmanded
ReyCola2 says2019-08-17T20:04:18.123
No, The Speed of light could change with God and the light from planets could already reach Earth as God commmanded
ReyCola2 says2019-08-17T20:04:18.123
No, The Speed of light could change with God and the light from planets could already reach Earth as God commmanded
ReyCola2 says2019-08-17T20:04:18.313
No, The Speed of light could change with God and the light from planets could already reach Earth as God commmanded
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