Opinion Question
Argument
Posted by: Pineberry12

Our taste buds are not worth more than sentient life. We should look align our morals with our eating habits/the products that we purchase.

  When we walk into our local grocery store in modern society, We do not realize the efficacy of the products that we buy. When we buy an item, There is a system of supply and demand to which is only influenced by the consumers that buy them. We could easily buy foods like fruits, Vegetable, Nuts, Seeds, Legumes (beans), Grains, And such- and live how we do today without animal products. We are able to maintain proper nutrition, Help our environment, And save the lives of billions of animals that are slaughtered/exploited for our consumption, By simply not buying products that contain meat, Dairy, Fish, And egg products. If you agree that life is worth more than taste, You would have to agree that it isn't morally justifiable to eat/purchase animal products nor to pay other people to kill/exploit the animals on your behalf (by paying for it when purchasing the products).
MitchV says2019-07-15T01:23:44.317
Sentient:
1. Responsive to or conscious of sense impressions
2. AWARE
3. Finely sensitive in perception or feeling
(www. Merriam-webster. Com)

You know that smell of freshly cut grass? That's a chemical that it emits to alert other grass that it is being cut. This means the grass is responding to a sensation, That it is aware that it is being damaged. Basically, The grass is screaming in pain. Thing is, Every plant has a response to being damaged so plants must also be sentient life.

"And save the lives of billions of animals that are slaughtered/exploited for our consumption. "
Fact is, The vast majority of livestock species owe their existence to the meat industry. Without the farmer, They not only wouldn't exist but wouldn't even survive to adulthood as they lack the instinct and tools to survive life in the wild. The exception would be pigs as they revert to being wild boars that can cause more harm than good. Basically, By setting them free, Your not saving their lives but either killing them or endangering the lives of people as a wild boar does not care if we are sentient or not.

Sure, We can survive on plants but we still need protein. The most popular plants for protein are bean, Especially soybeans. People say it's cow flatulent that help cause global warming so what do you think happens if people eat a lot more beans? "Beans, Beans, The musical fruit. . . " Think you know the rest.
Funny thing is, One of the most popular things to do with soybeans is to make soybean burgers which begs the question. If you don't like the idea of eating meat then why eat something that gives you the idea your eating meat? If you think that sounds hypocritical, Get this. One of the most popular vegan brands (Morning Star Farms) makes patty called "Meat Lovers Vegan Burger". You can't be more openly hypocritical than that.
Pineberry12 says2019-07-17T17:32:57.297
Plants make a chemical response as similar to a computer/ A. I. Respond to stimuli. Technology is not sentient just because it can respond to stimuli

The animals don't owe us anything- We aren't saving the animals by forcefully breeding them into existence then slaughtering them for food. As the demand for meat decreases, So will the amount of animals. There will be more animal sanctuaries and a much lower amount of animals in these industries at a point where the animals are liberated from factory farms.
I would much rather live my life to its entirety, Rather than having it be good for a bit, Then cut off just so that someone can attain pleasure from it (your taste). They do not NEED to die, We could easily buy something that is not meat and live perfectly fine. Its easy.

I don't eat products like veggie burgers etc, But others do so that we don't have to slaughter an animal for our consumption. A burger/sausage shape is a very convenient eating shape (keep in mind, Burgers and hot dogs do not come out of an animal that way). Also, Just why not? If it taste just as good as an animal product, Doesn't require directly hurting an animal, And also helps the environments- Why not?

(and its not hypocritical unless we were saying- I don't support animal cruelty, But then proceeded to a eat burger that required a cow's neck to be slit and its corpse hung, Its flesh cut and ground up, 'neatly packaged', And put in a grocery store where you don't have to see what happens. So choosing a 'burger shaped' food that is made of plants and somehow tastes like meat, Is not going against the effort to reduce animal suffering as much as practically possible [the vegan society's definition of veganism])
MitchV says2019-07-19T17:14:41.867
@Pineberry12,

Tho we don't know if plants have emotion (definition 3), There is some evidence that they respond to various music and how people talk. Either way, They still fit the first two definitions.

Thing is, We also can't say animals have much for emotions, After all, They lack facial expression and can't normally communicate with us how they are feeling. We know how they respond in various cases but an A. I. Would do the same. Hypothetically: You invent and or create an A. I. Robot. Is it yours to do as you wish? Of course it is. You could have it work endlessly or you could bask it's little computer brain in and rip out it's circuits with a chain saw and their isn't anything the law can do about it as your only destroying your own possession.
More and more animal sanctuaries? To the best of my knowledge, There are no sanctuaries for livestock. There is a name for what you call liberating an animal from a farm. It's called theft and if more and more vegans commit theft, The more and more vegans will be put behind bars were there is little choice in what to eat.

"I would much rather live my life to its entirety"
I would guess the animals would too and being raised on a farm gives them their best chance at that. Imagine your a cow that has just been "liberated". At best you got left somewhere there is grass and water close by but you have never seen a predator much less know that they want to eat you. If your even more lucky, Your fully grown so less likely to be the main target. Predators tend to go after the very young calves or older cows that are less able to defend themselves. If you are that lucky, You may get to see your parents and kids be killed right before your eyes. If your very lucky, You will be put somewhere there isn't predators (unlikely in the wild). Thing is, You still have numerous other hazards. There's no vets in the wild so if you get sick or injured, Your days are still numbered. Yet another issue is wandering into traffic. On farms, This rarely happens but it would be more likely to happen in the wild. A white tailed dear tends to weigh about 160 lbs and you know how much damage that can cause. Just think about the damage should you hit a cow that weighs about 1200 lbs.
Contrast that with being on a farm. Your likely to grow till your at least fully grown. Farms are notoriously predator free. You always have plenty eat and drink. You are kept in the best health and if something does happen, The farmer would get the vet to fix you. You want for nothing, Have no reason to fear anything, And you will be basically happy right up to the point you die.

"I don't eat products like veggie burgers etc"
"If it taste just as good as an animal product"
How would you know if they taste just as good if you don't eat them?
As far as convenient shapes are considered, Most fruits and vegetables grow in very convenient shapes like apples, Carrots etc. As they can be eaten right from your hand with little if any preparation so it's not like you can use it as a credible reason to shape them as meat products.

"animal cruelty"
What is cruel about being pampered your entire life and to die painlessly? Thing is, Even if you still consider it cruel: So you don't support animal cruelty yet you also like the idea of eating meat. See the contradiction? I don't support child cruelty and I also don't like the idea of eating a child.

Tho slitting of an animals throat may be done in some countries and for specific religious practices, This is not practiced on factory farms/slaughterhouses here in the U. S.

"ts corpse hung, Its flesh cut and ground up, 'neatly packaged', And put in a grocery store where you don't have to see what happens. "
Actually, I and may meat eating people have either processed it themselves (hunters) or viewed others (butchers) perform the task. My parents also had a garden that was about 1. 5 acres so we also processed much of our own vegetables. Vegans also get most of their food neatly packaged at the grocery store and are clueless about were it comes from. Some may even think potatoes are picked off the vine like tomatoes.
Pineberry12 says2019-07-19T21:15:52.753
How can you end the life of something that doesn't want to die?
And just because they can't communicate that to you verbally, How does that justify the action as well?
(If you attempted to speak to a mentally disabled person or someone who speaks another language- just because they can't communicate to you, Doesn't mean that you can do what you want with them [i. E. Slaughter them]. And whether its dog or any animal has facial expression, Or shows that they do not want to die (or have their babies taken away from the mother [mother cows cry and run after their calves that are taken away for slaughter]. We can make a social contract with all of these animals, Especially if you've seen a dog at play, Where when it learns to play etc. And if you show signs of disappointment if the play becomes rough/ the dog bites too hard, It will know not to bite as hard the next time to have a mutual playing time. Experiments with rats can show empathy as it has been seen that rats would chose saving a drowning rat rather than take the other option of cheese.
Animal sanctuaries have been becoming more common as farms realize that they do not want to send their animals to slaughter, Hence they keep the animals and take care of them. And those who take the animals are stopping a living thing from suffering in the horrific conditions of factor farms and a human made inevitable death that doesn't need to be inevitable. I don't want to make it antisemitic, But if someone saved a Jew from a concentration camp, The rescuer would receive a punishment (but much worse). The people in the camps did not want to die, Didn't have to die. But they were forced to die. And society in Germany was fine with it since they didn't know what was actually happening (see any connections? ).
Just because an animal may not survive in the wild, Doesn't mean we are rescuing them inside these slaughterhouses. We are systematically killing them, When they can decide their own fate. If I was to be 'born in the wild', I would rather take my chances and survive rather than being corralled in a very small room with a ton of other creatures of my species, Forcefully either stunned, Gased, Or having my throat slit just so that someone that believes "they are better than me" or "on top of the food chain" in comparison to me when I would rather not die.

Check out the movie "Dominion" if you want to see the STANDARD PRACTICES of how a meat unfortunately makes it to your plate.

My parents and sister who aren't vegans tried it and enjoyed the variety of vegan foods. Most of them without knowing and surprisingly eating more of it then they would eat when it would be an animal product.

I do not eat animal products. I do not pay for animal products. And i do not support animal cruelty. (If i did eat meat, That would be highly hypocritical)

Even if it was how you think it may be: open pastures, Happy cows, Etc. How can we justify ending the life of a being that doesn't want to die.
If our dog lives a wonderful and happy life, Nothing wrong with them, We don't just say, Well, Its an animal, Not as intelligent as me, Can't talk to me, Today is the day, "fry up the grill", . No. And there's no trait that a dog has that any other 'livestock animal doesn't have.

And if they do not slit the animals throat, How else do they "Humanely" (with compassion and benevolence) kill animal that does not want to die. I'll wait.

Flesh of an animal vs. Tomatos and Potatoes?

If ground dog was in the 'meat' section, What would you think of that?

Also, To add. Most people would say a "quick death" would be "humane". But what about assassinations in history. People did not expect it, Took one shot, Was quick, Would everyone be fine since the person lived out their life to that point pretty well and it ended quick?
MitchV says2019-07-20T17:49:07.587
@Pineberry12,
"How can you end the life of something that doesn't want to die? "
Simple fact is, Unless a person is suicidal, Nobody wants to die yet they do regardless.
"And just because they can't communicate that to you verbally, How does that justify the action as well? "
I also doubt that plants want to die and they too can't communicate that to you verbally yet you justify the killing and eating of them.
From what I have seen, Animals don't view death as we do. For instance, When a pride of lions has a new male. This male will kill all the cubs from the prior male. If some guy you don't know killed your husband and children, You would hate them but not so in the lion kingdom. They not only accept him as their new leader but go into heat so they can bear the new lions cubs. The animal world is filled with such examples of how they view death far differently than we do as the evidence point to that they just accept it as a matter of live.
"When they can decide their own fate. "
You mentioned dogs later on. You are basically doing the same thing. They don't fend for themselves but depend on you for their needs. The main difference is that they get to suffer growing old and feeble until you finally find mercy and have the put to sleep. You may even decide to spay or neuter them so they never get the chance to have young unlike livestock. If the animal is taken out of a slaughterhouse alive, It will still likely die soon but from some other more painful and stress filled method that nature may have fated for them.

Don't really need to see a movie about it. I have seen animals bet bolted and also have seen animals processed (dear) in person.

"I do not pay for animal products. "
What is your belt and shoes made out of? Do you use cosmetics or perfume? Many plastics, Clothing, Adhesives, And paint also contain animal by-products. Other product like wool and feathers are also used in common household items. If you have a pet, What do you feed it? Odds are, You have purchased tons of items that have either been tested on captive animals or came from them and you don't even know it.

"fry up the grill"
Actually, In many countries, Dogs are also used as livestock. There are even certain breads developed for that purpose. If I lived in one of those countries or it was common in my area, I would think nothing of it. Thing is, In those places, They treat the dog as livestock and not like a pet. Also, If I lived in one of those countries, It wouldn't bother me to see dog in the meat section as it would be somewhat common.

Again, Animals don't view death as we do. Wild herbivores probably expect that they will die some day because some predator will kill them. Obviously, In the wild, A herbivore has likely seen many of their family (young and old) die at the hands of a predator so likely know it is their fate one way or the other. Hypothetically, If you belonged to a ruthless gang and turned snitch, You would likely accept that some day you will be assassinated by others in that gang as you have seen it happen many times before.
Pineberry12 says2019-07-26T10:51:41.007
I won't be on the internet much longer, But I will respond one more time:
You can easily buy vegan clothing without fur/wool/leather.
Vegan toothpaste, Perfumes, Body washes.
And the fact is, We do not need to kill these animals to live. So why take their lives at all.
And culture shouldn't dictate morality. As you say, Of course people eat dogs in other countries, Its wrong but true. But just because they do, Does that mean its ok? Look at slavery, That was the social norm and none of the slave owners wanted their slaves to be freed. And just because slavery was viewed as something that was okay back then with the slave trade etc. Does that mean slavery is moral? In other countries today, Girls and homosexuals are given no rights. But does that make it morally acceptable just because it is their culture? This is rhetorical.

Also to give my last point which is an odd one to end on and you didn't argue it here, But what about bread? You know, Life a loaf.
You argued that vegans are hypocrites for eating stuff like meat, But what about meat loaf lol. Trying to make meat into a loaf. Like a loaf of bread. A loaf is a good shape to serve food, And even myself I used to make lentil loaves for myself because it makes serving much easier. Hence, This is why burger shapes, Sausage shapes, Etc. Shouldn't be frowned upon, Unless you want a new shape for bread. Lol
MitchV says2019-07-27T16:31:06.310
@Pineberry1,

Clothing: So basically your left with cotton, Hemp fiber, And synthetics. Problem is, Which synthetics are created using animal byproducts? Don't forget, Some plastics, Paint and adhesives also made using animal byproducts and I doubt they disclose that on product labels. Look around you at all the things made with these and your likely to be surrounded by products made with animal byproducts. Sure, You may be able to buy some brands of health and beauty product that are not tested on animals but that's only because they use compounds that have already been tested by other manufacturers.
"We do not need to kill these animals to live. So why take their lives at all. "
Sure, If you can do without any plastic products or many of the modern conveniences of today. Sure you can, But would you want to?

So your again equating animals (eating them) to humans (slavery). Do you oppose people having a pet dog? After all, There lives are just like that of a slave. Lesser housing (dog house). Poorer quality food (dog food), You own their children, You order them to perform tasks, You only provide food and not pay. They never get to vote, Go to a real school, Etc. What about predators in the wild. If they are sentient and should be treated as humans, Should vegans keep wild animals from hunting/eating each other? If your willing to protect animals from humans, Why not protect them from other animals? Are they any less sentient if being killed by a wild animal? Maybe because it's a wild animal so morals don't apply so justified. If that's the case, Would you stop a wild animal from killing a human?

Bread: A loaf/bread is a composite food and has no ties to specific ingredients just like salad can have fruits, Vegetables, Or even meats as it's main ingredient. Thing is, Bread is usually made using an animal byproduct as butter is used to brown the crust. It would be funny if you have been eating vegan burgers in buns that had been coated with butter or lard. Have you ever put a loaf of anything in your mouth? No, You slice it up into servings first. In contrast, A burger patty or sausage is the serving you put in your mouth. See, Meats are almost always portioned as few living things can be eaten whole or as a portion. This is why we have common portions such as patties, Sausage, Nuggets, Fillets, Etc. Thing is, Have you EVER seen someone try to make a meat dish to have the same appearance and taste of a plant based food (fruit/vegetable)? For instance, Have you ever heard of meat disguised as cauliflower, Asparagus, Broccoli, Cabbage, Etc? Even the meat loaf you mentioned. Does that look like, Taste like, Or have a similar texture of bread? Not at all.
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