Did you know that Ken Ham said that 9/11 was god judging the nation because of "sins" like homosexuality?

Posted by: triangle.128k

God sent Osama Bin Laden to hijack some planes because of homosexuals.

  • Yes

  • No

29% 5 votes
71% 12 votes
  • I didnt know it, but im not surprised by it

  • Didn't know but not suprised.

  • No, and actually that would be false. What Ken said was that humanity's sins from the beginning are the root cause of all these bad things. In Genesis it talks about how our sins moved us away from God, as such bad things can now happen. He was saying that overall it was humanity's fault that these bad things happened in the first place, including 9/11. How this poll was worded is somewhat misleading.

  • Because he didn't say that.

  • That's f*cked up.

    Posted by: gabep
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TBR says2015-08-03T15:45:03.4450756Z
We have a very inconsistent supreme being.
reece says2015-08-03T17:45:02.0221137Z
I think he meant Allah.
NewLifeChristian says2015-08-03T17:57:31.0921154Z
@triangle.128k I know what you're doing. Good thing Ken Ham won't be my main source of evidence for Creation. Next time don't try to make polls with the intention to convince people to vote for you on a debate.
triangle.128k says2015-08-03T18:09:22.8622780Z
This has nothing to do with our debate? I'm just pointing out the logic of Ken Ham.
TBR says2015-08-03T19:08:33.2065428Z
Where is the link to your debate?
triangle.128k says2015-08-03T19:12:20.4687996Z
http://www.debate.org/debates/Evolution-vs-Young-Earth-Creationism/1/
triangle.128k says2015-08-03T21:57:08.2767686Z
@mwedwards But he said that homosexuality is one way how humanity still sins. And that's pretty offensive and insulting to homosexuals. There's nothing really wrong with their actions.
mwedwards says2015-08-03T22:23:43.8081963Z
@triangle: The point I am making is that Ken Ham did not say God caused 9/11 because of some gay people. Your poll and comment below the title of the poll seemed to indicate that is what Ken said. He didn't. I was just clarifying that. About the insult to homosexuals part, I believe he talked about homosexuality, not the people. He wasn't saying that homosexuals are bad people at all, really he said very little about the whole topic. Basically he wasn't in anyway saying that the people are bad, he said the sin was bad.
GabeLipworth says2015-08-03T22:34:33.6130815Z
Isn't it God that invented the existence of homosexuality? So if he has someone to punish for that then it's himself!
mwedwards says2015-08-03T22:42:40.6170033Z
@GabeLipworth: Well, no. Remember, in Genesis everything started out perfectly, there was no sin. In Genesis it also talks about how man and woman were to be together. He intended it to be for man and woman to be united in marriage, but after the first sin we then see other sins including homosexuality. So no, it was essentially caused and created by humans.
triangle.128k says2015-08-03T22:43:27.3253829Z
So there's something wrong with homosexuality?
mwedwards says2015-08-03T22:45:13.8723857Z
@triangle: I think homosexuality is a sin, but I don't think homosexuals are bad people.
triangle.128k says2015-08-03T22:45:32.8421073Z
Homosexuality isn't even common, why are you so worried about it? Fundamentalist Christians always talk about how it's a sin, even though there's no given proof of it being harmful.
triangle.128k says2015-08-03T22:48:48.0790390Z
So your "all-loving" god deems homosexuals as sinners? Given that there's nothing wrong with it?
mwedwards says2015-08-03T23:00:09.7237283Z
@triangle: What I'm saying is that ultimately God made it so that man and woman were to be together. Not man and man or woman and woman. I'm not arguing about whether or not there is a particular harm, I am arguing that it goes against what God intended. Second comment: Triangle, we are ALL sinners. We have all done bad things, and the Bible makes it clear that we are not to judge anyone as less or more than us because we are just as bad or good as they are. I don't see why you assume that God hates homosexuals so much. He hates the sin, not the people. By the way He is All-Loving.
triangle.128k says2015-08-03T23:06:47.7931602Z
Do you believe that because everyone is a sinner, the only way to not be tortured in hell is to accept Jesus?
triangle.128k says2015-08-03T23:08:04.2492503Z
Also, do you think that the Bible has an optimistic view point, or is it pessimistic because everyone is a sinner?
mwedwards says2015-08-03T23:15:40.1448925Z
@triangle: Partially yeah. You still have to follow God's word, and live your daily life for Him. But that is a huge part, because without having that connection/relationship with God, you can't really have your sins forgiven. Second comment: I'm not sure I would characterize it as either. I would say that the Bible gives a lot of Hope. It says that despite the sinful nature of humanity, there is a way to become free of those sins and one day live with God in Heaven. So I guess it would lean more towards optimistic. It also talks about how despite our sinful nature God still loves us. I mean He sacrificed His Son Jesus so that we may be freed from our sins. That really shows how much He loves us.
triangle.128k says2015-08-03T23:33:04.6807882Z
That's a logical fallacy, a god can't be all-loving if he sends any non-Christians to be eternally tortured for simply their beliefs. An almighty god with a higher intelligence than a human judges people off their religious beliefs? If god were somewhat intelligent, wouldn't he judge people based on their actions rather than their beliefs?
triangle.128k says2015-08-03T23:36:53.9086576Z
Further more, why did god leave unclear evidence of Jesus and Christianity? You might believe there's evidence of Christianity to some extent, but it's not as clear as something like gravity or the Earth revolving around the sun. Only around 1.3 billion something people in the world are to be sent to heaven. The rest are eternally tortured over not believing in something with somewhat distorted evidence. This god of yours can't be all-loving and forgiving in this case. Or, you could simply state they are 'all loving and forgiving' unless you don't believe in him, then he's all hating and unforgiving.
triangle.128k says2015-08-03T23:48:05.2606413Z
If god really was forgiving, why couldn't he reveal himself clearly to everyone so they start believing in the right religion? Further more, do you believe that any non-Christian should be tortured in prison or something? Because won't it eventually happen to them in Hell, how's it any different?
TBR says2015-08-04T00:12:33.4467725Z
@mwedwards - Forget about Ham. I have a big issue with this dodge - "its not about the people, its about the action". That is a... Well, if it makes you feel better, it shouldn't. How can this be acceptable to you?
mwedwards says2015-08-04T00:20:57.6108043Z
@triangle: First comment: You missed part of what I said in the prior comment. You have to have a connection/relationship with God to be able to have your sins forgiven. If you don't have a way for your sins to be forgiven, then you can't go Heaven because God cannot be around sin. That was made clear in Genesis because Adam and Eve had to leave after they sinned. For your religion comment, again it is all about the connection/relationship with God. He wants a relationship with us, and that can't happen if we worship other things. Finally God judges on both actions and beliefs. If you act great, but don't believe in God, then you won't go to Heaven. Likewise if you believe in God, but you totally disregard his teachings, then you probably won't go to Heaven. Yes we will make mistakes, but we can't just ignore his teachings. Second comment: A lot of the reason that you have to be able to see the doubts of what you believe, and then work through them so that in the end you will have a much stronger relationship with Him. If it was all just simple and blatantly obvious, then we really couldn't form as nearly as strong of a connection. That said I do believe that there is a substantial amount of evidence that supports Christianity, so much that it's still such a well-argued topic on this site and in the real world. If there was no evidence to support it, then it really wouldn't exist. About the 1.3 billion part: Again it is all about having that connection/relationship with God. God makes it clear that He loves everyone despite their flaws. However, if they don’t choose to accept Jesus in their lives they will not be able to have their sins washed away, so they can’t go to Heaven. Also, we have to realize that almost everyone on this planet at some point will have the chance to accept Jesus into their lives, so everyone has the chance, not just a small portion. Third comment: I talked about the first part in the first comment section. For the next part, I don’t like it at all that people are tortured on this planet. I like it even less that some people will not accept Jesus into their lives and go to Heaven.
mwedwards says2015-08-04T00:23:28.8537738Z
@TBR: Where are you quoting that from, and could you please restate the question? I didn't quite understand what you were getting at.
triangle.128k says2015-08-04T00:41:11.5325858Z
@mwedwards Okay, essentially you're trying to complicate things. God can't love everyone if he tortures them. That's like saying Hitler loved Jews or that Stalin loved Ukrainians. There are Christians that don't believe only Christians go to heaven, essentially you're no better than a neo-Nazi if you believe in eternal torture of non-Christians.
mwedwards says2015-08-04T00:56:33.1396935Z
@triangle: I think I am making things pretty clear. You're the one who keeps changing the topic. God doesn't torture people, that is a baseless statement. Henceforth your comment about Hitler and Stalin has no value. What Biblical texts do Christians who believe non-Christians will also go to Heaven use to back up that claim? I'm not sure how your linking me to neo-Nazism. I don't want those people to go to Hell, and I think that is what you are basing that comment on. You have assumed I want them to go to Hell, and I already said I did not.
triangle.128k says2015-08-04T00:58:31.8564545Z
You believe they do, but other Christians believe non-christians can go to heaven.
triangle.128k says2015-08-04T00:58:53.8854759Z
If god doesn't torture people, why does he send them to hell to where they will be tortured forever, over their BELIEFS?
mwedwards says2015-08-04T01:02:23.0967368Z
@triangle: First Comment: Ok, what Biblical text do they use to support their argument? You seem to know, so tell me. Second Comment: It is not God torturing them. It's Hell, the Devil, demons, and others that do the torturing. I already answered why they go there, read some of my comments please. I already talked about this.
TBR says2015-08-04T01:02:34.3600090Z
Look back to your post @5:82
triangle.128k says2015-08-04T01:05:02.7949605Z
@mwedwards They have their interpretation of the bible. But your interpretation is that only Christians make it to heaven. Why can't god save everyone, or at least save the people that behaved well on Earth?
mwedwards says2015-08-04T01:06:42.4327992Z
@TBR: Okey-dokey, I did not post at that time, and I can't find that exact quote, so could you just post the entire comment please? Then please restate your question, I didn't quite understand.
mwedwards says2015-08-04T01:09:49.4467980Z
@triangle: Why won't you provide any Biblical text that supports the interpretation? I would like to see and read it. For your question: I already answered that, look at the comments again. Basic answer is that God can't be around sin, therefore those who have not been forgiven of their sin can't go to Heaven. I already said that.
triangle.128k says2015-08-04T01:12:42.9371903Z
There are people who believe that non-Christians can go to heaven. I'm not sure exactly what the Bible says considering that i'm not a Christian, but you can ask them. Also, why can god forgive people who had a "relationship" with Jesus, but not non-Christians? Because the non-christians sinned also, so how is god around sin at that time?
mwedwards says2015-08-04T01:21:34.2125157Z
@triangle: You are in essence supporting the view of some Christians that non-Christians can go to Heaven. I would like you to support that with Biblical Texts. If you can't then just ask some of your friends or someone you know why it is supported Biblically. For the next part, I would say that if there is no relationship with God, then A: You're probably not going to ask for forgiveness in the first place, and B: God wants us to actually want to be with Him in Heaven and have a relationship with Him, otherwise you are just doing it to get into Heaven. For the last question, I don't really understand what you're asking or how it makes sense. Could you please clarify.
triangle.128k says2015-08-04T01:32:04.2086343Z
I'm not sure if I can support it, I don't know too much about that since i'm not a Christian. But some look at the Bible as a metaphor and can interpret it in different ways. Also, why can't god save everyone into heaven if he wants everyone to go to heaven? Why does he send non-christians to hell when he loves them and wants them in heaven? That's psychopathic behavior.
TBR says2015-08-04T02:50:29.3687152Z
Sorry. Was on the table, watching kids. It was @5:23 you said "the point I am making is that Ken Ham did not say God caused 9/11 because of some gay people.... I believe he talked about homosexuality, not the people. He wasn't saying that homosexuals are bad people at all, really he said very little about the whole topic. Basically he wasn't in anyway saying that the people are bad, he said the sin was bad." That is the sentiment I am talking about.
mwedwards says2015-08-04T02:57:54.9560517Z
@triangle: Sorry it took me so long to reply. Ok, so you aren't willing to defend that interpretation? Alright, well, since I am the Christian in this conversation, why don't we take my word for it in this case. Unless you want to defend the other interpretation, in which case we can have a more productive conversation. Question 1: Because they have not asked for forgiveness. We have to realize something, and that something is that God has given us free will. We can choose how we live our lives, and part of that is if whether or not we believe in God, Jesus, the Bible, etc and ask for forgiveness. He lets us choose, He doesn't force His Will upon anybody. Question 2: Go ahead and cross-apply the answer for Q1, then just look back at the comments. A lot of these questions have been answered already, and this is one of them.
triangle.128k says2015-08-04T03:01:38.2558831Z
Considering that you're repeating the same arguments, i'm done here.
mwedwards says2015-08-04T03:01:46.4771358Z
@TBR: Alright, so you want to defend that mentality? May I ask what problem you have with it, or do you just want me to talk about it?
mwedwards says2015-08-04T03:02:59.0488010Z
@triangle: They all apply, you haven't refuted them, and you have continued to ask the same questions. Same questions deserve same responses.
triangle.128k says2015-08-04T03:14:52.0825717Z
Yeah because you're distorting my arguments and using logical fallacies, and you're making no sense. You essentially believe non-Christians should be tortured for their beliefs.
mwedwards says2015-08-04T03:19:53.3673030Z
@triangle: I have distorted none of your arguments, I have explained the "logical fallacies" you claim exist, and I am sure that to you I am not making any sense. Understandable. For the last statement, you know at this point you have called me a neo-Nazi, so I am not even going to reply to this again.
mwedwards says2015-08-04T03:20:42.3984173Z
@TBR: *so you want me to defend...
triangle.128k says2015-08-04T03:27:57.8128084Z
Yeah you have, you're sugar coating the absurdity of torturing non-christians by mentioning about "asking for forgiveness" or "free will."
mwedwards says2015-08-04T03:52:18.9805748Z
@triangle: I'm not distorting! I have answered every question you asked and have tried to make my arguments clear. You say I am sugar-coating, but that doesn't make sense. I provided reasons why things are as they are, you just refuse to acknowledge them as arguments. All you say are things like your "sugar-coating" comment.
evielovesrocknroll says2015-08-04T15:06:03.0940100Z
Dumbass!
Haroush says2015-08-05T00:52:23.2623905Z
Mredwards, Don't waste your breath on these mind numb knuckleheads. They aren't worth your time they just want to agitate people.
Haroush says2015-08-05T00:53:45.5997183Z
*mwedwards
triangle.128k says2015-08-05T02:32:17.9596178Z
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
triangle.128k says2015-08-05T02:32:37.1009405Z
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)
triangle.128k says2015-08-05T02:36:30.2750602Z
But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of every woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.... Any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head ...For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair ...For a man ought not to cover his head; since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) 1 Corinthians 11:2-10
triangle.128k says2015-08-05T02:36:57.1540325Z
Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but with a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy. (Matthew 10:34-37)

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