Does Bernie Sanders need to take a basic economics class?

Posted by: Sam7411

73 Total Votes


44 votes


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Sam7411 says2016-03-19T02:18:43.8702106Z
@BrendanD19 I guess so since many actual experts Democratic and Republican find great faults in his economic policy
BrendanD19 says2016-03-19T02:32:23.8417210Z
150 credentialed economists including a nobel prize winner AND the former secretary of labor need to learn basic economics?
Sam7411 says2016-03-19T02:34:22.0124785Z
Well lets analyze the facts in the friendly debate that I challenged you to, right?
BrendanD19 says2016-03-19T02:42:07.9842126Z
I'd honestly rather not. I know about economics and it interests me, however I tend to prefer the politics side of things and economics debates tend to get rather technical and above my pay grade. I would ask one of the 150 economists who signed a letter supporting his plan. Robert Reich has said a lot on this.
SirMaximus says2016-03-19T02:55:20.1605435Z
@BrendanD19: There are about 15,000 economists in the United States (en.Wikipedia.Org/wiki/Economist#United_States). Those 150 economists you mentioned only make up about 1% of the economists in the United States. Not exactly a large number of economists.
BrendanD19 says2016-03-19T02:58:49.5294856Z
@SirMaximus That has nothing to do with the point I am making
BrendanD19 says2016-03-19T03:13:33.3687512Z
@stschiffman Then please explain Richard Wolff, Gar Alperovitz, Yanis Varoufakis, Branko Horvat, Jaroslav Vanek, David Schweickart, Stuart Holland, Steve Keen, Paul Sweezy, Michał Kalecki, Philip Mirowski, Pat Devine, Michael Albert, Robin Hahnel, Piero Sraffa, Nobuo Okishio, Ian Steedman, John Roemer, David Laibman and János Kornai? Do thay all need to take basic economics classes? These are/were (some are dead) well known and world renowned economists, many of whom not only studied, but also taught economics at universities around the world. Some like Sweezy and Piero Sraffa are considered some of the greatest economists of the 20th century alongside Hayek, Keynes and Friedman.
SirMaximus says2016-03-19T03:15:37.5341382Z
@BrendanD19: As for your question you asked earlier: yes, 150 credentialed economists need to learn basic economics. The fact that 150 economists support Bernie Sanders proves nothing. Sure, it sounds impressive, but like I said, it only accounts for about 1% of all economists. I could find 24 articles in peer-reviewed journals that deny anthropogenic global warming, which might sound impressive, but that argument falls flat when you find out that those articles were out of 13,950, meaning that less than 1% of the articles asserted that anthropogenic global warming wasn't real (en.Wikipedia.Org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming). It's the same thing. You can't just look at the number of economists or scientists - you have to also look at the percentage of economists or scientists. Oh, and by the way, Bernie Sanders has no idea how the economy works. Raise the minimum wage to $15/hour? That's a terrible idea. It kills jobs (washingtonexaminer.Com/new-evidence-that-the-minimum-wage-kills-jobs/article/2557106). It's also bad for women and minorities courier-(journal.Com/story/opinion/columnists/2014/09/02/raising-minimum-wage-hurts-women-minorities/14955629/).
reece says2016-03-19T03:25:00.4901726Z
@SirMaximus Top econimists...
BrendanD19 says2016-03-19T03:26:24.2944930Z
1) I must be noted that I cited just those who signed 1 open letter, and not any others, I'm sure there are PLENTY of other economists backing Sanders, Clinton, Trump, Stein, Johnson, Kaisich and Cruz. 2. Here is the thing I think you need to understand about economics, and every academic field for that matter. Economists, develop theories, and then debate whether their theories are right or not! Why do you think there are economists on both sides of the spectrum? You have Friedman and you have Sweezy. You have Hayek and you have Galbraith, and they have developed competing theories. Its like the debate within astro-physics over sting theory vs loop quantum gravity. They develop theories, find evidence to support their claims and then they debate. However never do they say that the economists that disagree with them understand nothing about basic economics. Do you think that in the debates between Bohr and Einstein, Bohr accused Einstein of not understanding basic economics? NO! They simply had competing theories. I am not in the academic theory side of things, I tend to look at the policy aspects and honestly, I find the policy aspects for democratic socialism and economic democracy to be more compelling than other views, but I am entitled to my opinion.
SirMaximus says2016-03-19T03:34:07.1650601Z
@reece: Those are more than 150, but 210 economists still isn't very many. That's less than 2% of all of the economists in the United States. @BrendanD19: There probably are other economists who support raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour. But so what? Just look at the evidence that I've already provided that demonstrates that raising the minimum wage kills jobs, and is bad for minorities and women.
reece says2016-03-19T03:36:59.0781621Z
@SirMaximus TOP economists. Do you understand? Look at their credentials. Do some research.
SirMaximus says2016-03-19T03:40:46.3736254Z
@reece: I did. I used the sources that I provided.
SirMaximus says2016-03-19T03:44:16.6826178Z
The fact that there are economists who support Bernie Sanders sickens me. They're akin to Muslims who support Donald Trump and scientists who think that vaccines cause autism.
reece says2016-03-19T03:51:48.1434612Z
@SirMaximus I meantin the context of the economists i provided. So economists who won Nobel prizes and other large rewords for their work sicken you if they support Bernie? Get your head out of your @ss.
reece says2016-03-19T03:52:40.1385945Z
Meant in*
SirMaximus says2016-03-19T03:55:46.0106994Z
@reece: Yes, they sicken me, because they support raising the minimum wage, which has been proven to kill jobs.
reece says2016-03-19T03:57:11.1123315Z
@SirMaximus Do you know what conformation bias is?
reece says2016-03-19T04:00:22.5255585Z
SirMaximus says2016-03-19T04:02:02.6945262Z
@reece: Yes, I know what it is. It's when you use evidence that supports your opinion to back up your opinion, but ignore evidence that refutes your opinion. However, I haven't seen any actual evidence that raising the minimum wage would be good for society and for the economy. If there's any, please show me it.
Vox_Veritas says2016-03-19T04:02:31.5695857Z
No, his position on economics has equal merit to that of non-socialists. However, I would say that outsourcing and greater use of machinery is a corporation's natural defense against rising production costs onset by forced wage hikes and that as long as you're demanding a higher and higher minimum wage you have no right to get mad when corporations resort to stuff like this.
reece says2016-03-19T04:07:08.5649613Z
@SirMaximus Yeah, you didn't even read my link. You probably skimmed the top.
BrendanD19 says2016-03-19T04:11:38.3686908Z
@Vox_Veritas That is both right, and wrong. For one, by firing all the workers from their business, that means there are fewer people to spend money because they have lost their jobs. This means that they will in turn make less money because people won't have money to spend on their goods. So they would not fire all of their workers and replace them with machines, they would fire some, but retain enough to keep everything running as it should. That is the reason why we need things like better labor protections and collective bargaining, and, above all, why we need to move towards economic democracy. If businesses are run in a democratic manner, no one could make a unilateral decision to automate the work force. The workers would have control over their workplace and would be able to vote the measure down. Also we need to end the Free Trade deals that have enabled outsourcing, and that just happens to be a part of Sanders' plan.
reece says2016-03-19T04:12:51.1275572Z
@Vox_Veritas It's the same when they b̶r̶i̶b̶e̶ ̶donate to politicians. You can't get mad at them.
BrendanD19 says2016-03-19T04:18:44.5834300Z
@SirMaximus how is this for evidence? And that is from a think tank not a Conservative news source (ie the Washington Examiner which is only slightly better than Breitbart)
triangle.128k says2016-03-19T04:49:41.2778503Z
@BrendanD19 Yes, it's very true that raising the MW that high would lead to higher wages for a lot of people. Do you know what that's called? You guessed it, inflation. Currency inflation is eventually going to backfire against an increase in minimum wages. It's also funny how "unemployment" is never mentioned in the article...
stschiffman says2016-03-19T17:32:37.4079248Z
@Brendan D19 "Socialists don't understand economics. If they did, they wouldn't be socialists." -Milton Friedman, Nobel Prize Winning Economist Think you know more about economics than him. In that case, where's your Nobel Prize?
reece says2016-03-19T21:59:32.8775467Z
@stschiffman “Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss people.” ― Socrates. So do you have any distinguished economists denoting Bernie's ideas (not socialism in general.) I'm sure you're just quote mining anyhow.
BrendanD19 says2016-03-19T23:48:23.1248477Z
@stschiffman Friedman never said that, he was critical of socialism as an economic system, but he never said that socialists don't understand economics. And furthermore the Nobel Prize in Economics is not awarded to those who are the absolute best in economics, it is awarded for achievements and innovations in the ACADEMIC field of economics. Friedman won it for "for his achievements in the fields of consumption analysis, monetary history and theory and for his demonstration of the complexity of stabilization policy". It was not because his work was necessarily because it made good policy, but because it was innovative and a unique accomplishment for that year and because the nominators agreed he earned it. It has to do with innovation in the study of economics, it doesn't have to do with policy or politics. If you want winners in economics who embraced socialism, I can tell you Kenneth Arrow was a Social Democrat, Gunnar Myrdal was a Democratic Socialist, and a pioneer in Post-Keynesian economics, which is considered by many to be the socialist or socialist leaning version of Keynesianism, James Tobin was a major influence on socialist economists such as Galbraith and Wolff, Jan Tinbergen based much of his work off of Oskar R. Lange, a pioneer in Market Socialism, Ronald Coase worked in the field of new institutional economics but was an avowed socialist, Amartya Sen based some of his work off of Marx's Labor theory of value. Piero Sraffa was awarded the Söderströmska Gold Medal in 1961 by the Swedish Academy. While not technically a nobel prize, the Söderströmska Gold Medal was soon replaced with the Nobel Prize in economics in 1968. Not many economists in the actual field of socialist economics have won, as there has historically been a bias towards mainstream economics. This is the same reason very few Austrian economists have won the prize.
reece says2016-03-20T00:02:57.8536549Z
@BrendanD19 If that's true, he could of come up with a better lie.
reece says2016-03-20T00:09:21.9593171Z
Better lie as in, one that i wouldn't have disputed so easily if i trusted he was truthful.
SirMaximus says2016-03-20T22:47:54.8809191Z
Oh, and by the way, Bernie's position on the minimum wage isn't the only economic issue where he's wrong. He also wants to make public college "free." Why is that wrong? Because even if you taxed the richest people at 100% of their income, it wouldn't be enough to pay for it (youtube.Com/watch?V=0e50fQLyebI).
reece says2016-03-20T23:26:26.3280491Z
@SirMaximus The defense budget?
reece says2016-03-20T23:27:46.9509163Z
Of i should say "defense".
reece says2016-03-20T23:29:28.6037044Z
BrendanD19 says2016-03-21T01:25:23.1282844Z
And actually he plans to pay for it through a financial transactions tax which would cover it.
Conspiracyrisk says2016-03-24T13:23:42.1102379Z
Sure, Bernie's not great on economics, but neither is Trump and Cruz's libertarian economic views are just awful. Clinton is okay but I really despise her.
Haroush says2016-03-25T05:54:41.1610259Z
Cruz's economic plan was one of the best and still is. His plan is much better than Trump's, Bernie's, and Clinton's plan hands down.
Haroush says2016-03-25T05:57:09.8923793Z
By the way, Cruz isn't a libertarian. Just letting you know.
reece says2016-03-28T11:47:17.6118015Z
@Haroush Wow, it seems you've been doing a lot of research XD
BrendanD19 says2016-04-01T01:10:12.0926906Z
@junedragon I don't think that is his goal to "fix a structural spending problem"
FrankyG170 says2016-04-30T01:41:45.6830681Z
He has yet to provide policies that are backed by accurate theories/observations of the economy.
BrendanD19 says2016-04-30T04:12:48.9199654Z
Does this work for that? (note the economist who wrote it later voted for Hillary because she is "electable") http://www.Dollarsandsense.Org/What-would-Sanders-do-013016.Pdf
Sam7411 says2016-04-30T16:37:31.3890959Z
Poll results so far: 57 votes 32 say Yes: 56% 25 say No: 44%
BrendanD19 says2016-04-30T17:54:36.1479416Z
Was it really necessary to point that out in the comments? I mean, it says all of that up top
Sam7411 says2016-04-30T17:59:50.8019586Z
Where did it provide the percentages, just giving an update. I wish you could see it automatically, but then again we can't even create polls in the first place anymore....
BrendanD19 says2016-05-01T00:21:23.6401514Z
chana says2016-05-29T02:59:00.6082871Z
Socialism closes the gap between the rich and poor making everyone equally.... Poor!
BrendanD19 says2016-05-29T04:05:38.2743130Z
Wow if I haven't heard that one a billion times before. If that was the case why does people who work in worker owned coops make on average more than the average worker?

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