Is Affermitive Action A Good Thing?Posted by: Bookwormav
40 Total Votes
It's Affirmative Action. And yes, I believe it's still needed based on the fact that certain groups are still at a disadvantage in the society we live in.
Varrack, where is the evidence for that? And stop pretending to care about minorities.
It is racist. I am a minority, and I do think it is unfair. Some may think it is more kind, but it is illogical. WNDebater says it best. If one is disadvantaged, find a way to get smarter, READ A BOOK!
"If one is disadvantaged, find a way to get smarter" - You cannot THAT ignorant.
You're also NOT a minority CyberConor, you're just a liar.
@briantheliberal, I think he has a point. It is by definition a racist system because it values certain races over others.
Texas14, there is nothing racist about leveling the playing field for those in society who are placed at a disadvantage because of their race or sex, which minorities and women are subjected to. I see why people want to believe it's racist, but it's not. What is racist is the fact that with and without AA, white males have an advantage in both education and employment over everyone else. For example, white men with criminal records are just as if not more likely to be hired by an employer than a black or Latino man with NO criminal record, or the fact that a white high school dropout is just as, if not more likely to get a job than a black college student or graduate. The system is not equal even with affirmative action, imagine if it weren't there at all.
Not to mention, white Americans benefit from Affirmative Action more than anyone else.
I think the playing field needs to be leveled, but racist AA programs aren't the way to do that. Minorities in poor communities need to be encouraged to get into higher education so that they can work their way out of poverty. That's the American Dream. My family has seen that first hand and racism doesn't solve anything.
Texas14, I don't think you're listening. Even with a college education, minorities are STILL at a disadvantage. They are less likely to be hired by employers, more likely to be discriminated against in the workplace and denied entry level and higher level positions despite having the necessary qualifications. A white high school dropout and criminal is more likely to be hired over a minority with a college education and NO criminal record. Minorities and women have to work extra hard just to get what white men have by not doing much at all. Affirmative Action isn't racism for trying to eliminate this.
I think it should be done on a socio econmoc stand point. I don't see why I a middle class women should be advantages over a poor man whose had to work harder than me and has had a harder time in school due to his economic situation. Let's be honest. The poor white man has probably had a harder life than the middle class black women. The bosnian refugee who lost his family in the genocide of bosnian Muslims in the 1990s and fled here needs the advantage over the upper class Kenyan immigrant who hasn't dealt with racism.
Brian I think anyone with a high laying job that requires a lot of education has to work hard for irregardless or race or gender. And could you give me the link to the facts you have about blacks being less likely to be hired than a white criminal or high school drop out? I don't doubt it as there is still racism against blacks.
"I think it should be done on a socio econmoc stand point" - except it's not lower or lower middle class white people being discriminated against when it comes to jobs and education, it's minorities in ALL socioeconomic backgrounds. Your assumptions that "The poor white man has probably had a harder life than the middle class black women" isn't based on reality. This isn't about who has a hard life, this is about who is placed at a disadvantage based on their ethnic background and/or sex/gender alone. I do understand where you are coming from, but in all honesty employers aren't judging people solely on their socioeconomic status and the evidence is clear.
Lavalante. If those minority individuals and women worked harder they would have mostly the same opportunities as whites and men.
@briantheliberal, are you saying I don't work hard and my life is handed to me? Quit making statistical generalizations. It's hard for everyone regardless of race. You keep saying it's minorities that are discriminated but Asians are a minority that has a higher average income than whites. And again, AA is racism by definition.
White convicts are just as if not more likely to be hired by an employer than a black or Latino man with NO criminal record. - http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/nyregion/17felons.html?_r=0 - white high school dropout is just as, if not more likely to get a job than a black college student or graduate. - http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/06/25/3452887/education-race-gap/ - And employment and education are biasly skewed to favor whites over minorities - http://www.ucalgary.ca/cared/examplesofsystemicracism
It's about leveling the playing field. If you give ghe rich black person the advantage over the poor white person than you aren't leveling the playing field as the playing field is all ready lopsided (the rich person having it better) against the poor person. Your creating more of a gap and making the field less equal.
"If those minority individuals and women worked harder they would have mostly the same opportunities as whites and men." - Nope.
Texas14, "are you saying I don't work hard and my life is handed to me?" - I did not say that so wtf are you talking about? Don't falsely accuse me of saying something I did not because you don't want to be confronted by your own privilege. You have an advantage, whether you work hard or not.
Mostly not all. I am a women and I know. And I believe what you said about blacks being less likely to get a callback from an employer than a white due to their black sounding name and I believe your comment that white criminals and high school drop outs are more likely to be hired than black high school grads with no criminal record
Brian, wouldn't you agree that affirmative action actually increases racial tension?
Also Asians aren't prone to the same negative bias that blacks and non-white Latinos are. It also depends heavily on where they're family comes from, some Asian ethnicities are favored more than others.
Texas14, "wouldn't you agree that affirmative action actually increases racial tension?" - Because white middle-class males are mainly the only ones crying about it, until they figure out they also benefit from it, which they do. Then their opinions change dramatically. - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/13/whites-support-meritocracy-academics-study_n_3750312.html
I don't think you get my point. It creates resentment among races. If you want to solve racial discrimination and racism, you'd want to make the opportunity equal and not give any race an advantage over another.
Except the opportunity is not equal, it favors white people. When the system stops placing white people at an advantage, then AA will no longer be needed. That is the point.
Where in the Constitution does it give white people rights and opportunities that blacks and Latinos don't have?
Texas14, what in the hell does the constitution have to do with this conversation? No where did I mention the constitution. Stop deflecting, and shifting the conversation toward something completely irrelevant.
Then what system are you referring to? You talk about rights, but where do those rights come from? They come from the law of the land which is the constitution.
If you're going to choose to be willfully ignorant of everything I just said and pretend that nothing I mentioned is a problem in society, you are part of that problem.
Again, read what I said again. Nobody is talking about constitutional rights bro.
Ok, bro. I'm just saying the Constitution is the reason our society exists and is as free as it is and has as much oppertunity as it does.
Can you provide me with an article or something about your claims that black high school grads are less likely to get hired than a white high school drop out and black people with no criminal recorders less likely to get hired than white criminals? Also provide me with the sources of or an article about the study showing that people with black sounding names are less likely to get a call back from an employer than people with white sounding names.
And nothing I said was about the constitution. Again, you miss the point.
I think I've thouroughly addressed your point. Please restate your point if I haven't.
Dilara, I literally just did that. Read above.
Texas14, You complain about how AA is racist, but completely ignore the fact that minorities are placed at a disadvantage with it comes to jobs and education, regardless of their previous socioeconomic status, their education or their skills compared to their white counterparts.
White convicts are just as if not more likely to be hired by an employer than a black or Latino man with NO criminal record. - http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/nyregion/17felons.html?_r=0
White high school dropout is just as, if not more likely to get a job than a black college student or graduate. - http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/06/25/3452887/education-race-gap/
What are the articles called because I'm not getting anything
Brian, I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying racism is not how we as a society solve it.
Texas14, Seeing as AA is not racism, it tries to combat racism, I don't really understand your point on the subject. What are your suggestions?
Dilara, just look up on google "A Black College Student Has The Same Chances Of Getting A Job As A White High School Dropout" or something similar. The links work just fine for me.
Giving someone a job just because they're black and not giving someone a job just because they are white is racism. If a Black guy was more qualified for a job than a white guy but didn't get the job because he was black and his counter part was white than you would probably think of that as racism. But when the races are reversed it's not racism?.
Dilara, except nobody is giving them a job BECAUSE they are black. They still have to take actual merit and qualifications into account. Please do some research and understand how affirmative action works before spouting off these misconceptions about what it is and what it does.
My stance is that AA by definition is racist. While its intention is to combat racism, the result is the opposite. It takes earned jobs and spots at colleges away from hard working Americans based on race and sex. Things which we cannot control.
Texas14, You didn't really answer my question. What are your suggestions to combat racial bias against minorities in education and job market?
We need to stop putting people in groups. Historically we've both penalized and rewarded people because they're in groups. If we let that message sink in, the market becomes a more friendly place and all of a sudden this group mentality fades away along with racism.
I know that if a man has slightly better grades than a women she can still get in to a university instead of him because of her gender. With out being a women she wouldn't have gotten accepted into that university. Therefor being a women is the main reason she got in. Same with race.
That isn't really a realistic expectation regardless. Racism exists, racial bias and prejudice exists, and minorities are ones affected by it the most, especially blacks, and non-white Latinos. The problem extends far beyond just skin color and grouping people together. Now, how exactly do you plan on combating this?
Dilara, wrong again. AA isn't about individuals, it's about quotas.
Middle class white women benefit from affirmative action more than any other group. Since I am in that category I should be more fond of it than anyone else. Brian I am more likely to benefit from it than you but I still am against it because I see something wrong with judging people by their race or gender and not their qualities.
The way I see it, racism is treating a person a different way according to their race. That's what AA is doing! You cannot fix race problems with racism.
You can't right racism with racism. Hitting someone else won't heal a nother persons bruise.
So what you're basically saying is that racism exists and we can't solve it and that your remedy to it is okay but mine isn't. Even though AA is a form of racism.
Dilara, I am aware of that. And I already pointed that out.
AGAIN PEOPLE. What are your suggestions?
I asked what your suggestions were more than once and you all keep going right back to the "AA is racist" rhetoric. If you don't like AA, what are your suggestions in regards to eliminating racial bias and discrimination in education and job market?
Since we're fighting racism with racism, I say we fight diseases by giving patients even more diseases.
Brian, historically, forcing a solution to this problem does less then letting it solve itself. More progress on racism has been made without AA than with it.
I don't get why some left-wingers believe nothing is anybody's fault, and we should get rid of equality because "people are different."
Triangle, that was the dumbest, most asinine comparison I have heard yet. Try again.
Texas, AGAIN, what are your suggestions? Answer the question.
Someone doesn't care about school, they bully people at school, they commit a bunch of crimes, they don't care about education and drop out of a community college? Oh no, they are just economic victims! Also it's just they have bad genes! Not their fault!
Ending AA would all ready be eliminating racism from college admissions ect. More education and awareness about different cultures and making people aware that just because someone has a black sounding name sonnet mean they are a criminal and wouldn't be good at a job or in a college.
Triangle, you're really making yourself look foolish, and not really contributing anything relevant to the conversation, so why are you here again?
Do you need me to link you a dictionary definition of satire?
Dilara, that doesn't answer my question. What are your suggestions for eliminating racial bias against disadvantaged minority groups in the US?
Brian, I would not have a program to solve this. I would let it solve itself.
Making AA based on a socio economic stand point would be advantaing poor disadvantaged minorities and women. Since minorities are more likely to be poor than whites many minorities would get the advantage over the white person. Also more funding info publicnl schools.
Triangle, I know what satire is, but your execution of it was poor.
Texas14, solve itself how? And where is the evidence for this?
No, I exaggerated affirmative action and a left-wing ideal. Affirmative action is basically giving minority groups an advantage because they were discriminated against in the past.
Dilara, I actually like your suggestion more than anyone else's so far. But there are a few things I will have to ask you about later.
Racism is really becoming less and less of a problem. You see that typical children nowadays don't care about somebody's race or religion. More elder people are usually more racist/prejudice against certain groups.
Brian, the evidence is that the solve itself mentality was used between 1860 and 1970. In 1860 slavery was legal. In 1970 it was illegal to discriminate because of race. There was no AA during that period.
Triangle, "Affirmative action is basically giving minority groups an advantage because they were discriminated against in the past" - No, AA is giving minority groups an advantage because they are still being discriminated against today as well.
Texas14, Affirmative Action was started in 1961.
Dilara, how does basing AA solely on socioeconomic status eliminate racial bias?
Racism is becoming less common, we should fight racism directly instead of giving minority groups an advantage. It's completely unfair and typical left-wing logic of "equity."
Ok, but you see my point that the progress made in that period was more helpful without AA.
Triangle, sorry but no. Despite public opinion on race relations changing and shifting, it's still a problem, a huge one at that. That also doesn't negate the fact that minorities are still at a disadvantage.
Texas14, AA was started in 1961, before the height of the Civil Rights Movement.
Are you saying the Civil Rights Movement was the only significant mention?
The fact that the government is giving an advantage to some people is no worse than the people committing racism. If a college rejects people because they're black, should we give advantages to black people? Or should we perhaps fight the problem itself.
Back when blacks were really oppressed, civil rights activists never demanded they receive an advantage over rights. The activists instead demanded people to not discriminate against blacks.
Affirmative action is simply a short-term fix. Eventually, it will create even further group seperation in the long run.
Before I come back, read this - http://agsci.psu.edu/diversity/news/2012/is-affirmative-action-racist
The government shouldn't be racist in response to racists.
Brian, you also act as if the Civil Rights Movement was a governmental action. It took people from below to get that passed. They solved it. Whatever the government does, it does badly.
If colleges are prejudiced, which I doubt many are, than the answer to that would be to find the source of the problem and fire the people who are racially prejudiced. @Brian are you still scared to debate me?
College prejudism is exaggerated by liberals. Look at the statistics of Harvard for example: https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics
The amount of Asians in Harvard for example is pretty high, 20% of people admitted into Harvard are Asian. 4% of the people in USA are in fact Asian. The amount of Blacks in Harvard is pretty equal to the population of blacks.
That article is pure bullcrap, it's exaggerating how bad racism is in the USA.
Varrack, I was never "scared" to debate you in the first place, I gave you my reasons for not being able to debate previously. But quite honestly, you're not even worth debating with anymore. All you do is ignore my points when it's convenient for you when you can't defend yourself, falsely accuse me of "attacking" you when I point out the logical inconsistencies in your arguments, and badmouth me to other users when you think I am not around or aware of your bullsh-t. So you can go f-ck yourself, and find someone who isn't smart enough to destroy you like you have been.
Triangle, "That article is pure bullcrap, it's exaggerating how bad racism is in the USA." - Evidence? What parts were bullcrap and why?
Why not keep affirmative action but make it purely based on socio-economic class. Keep race out of it or it is inherently racist.
Renegader, using that same argument, someone can call AA based entirely on socioeconomic status "classist" or discriminatory against the middle and upper classes.
I was actually denied from post professional school even though I more than exceeded the academic requirements because "Even though my credentials were exemplary, I would not be a good fit with the student body" there and they "could not admit me at this time". Feeling suspicious, I re-applied the same year, only on the race section of the application, I checked the box saying that I was black (I am white), and the university called me in for an interview. They dismissed me when I got there though, saying it was because I lied on the application (about my race), but I think it's safe to assume that it's because I wouldn't help them reach their quota. Side note, for obvious legal reasons, I won't name the University, especially since I am pursuing a lawsuit against them over this. This occurred in Atlanta, where the racial ratio's of university attendance are more level than in other parts of the country.
Krampus. That's what Brian and stefy want. For you to be denied something you worked hard for because of your race. Good job with the law suit I hope you beat those racist b@stards
Thank you for your support Dilara. It's been lengthy and at a large cost to myself.
In my opinion, I just think its another way of saying minority aren't good enough to get a job.
Krampus let me know if I can do anything Right tjshar as a women I find AA insulting I can work just as hard and learn just as much as any men. I can get a job ok my own merits.
Racism does exist in the workplace, as well as collages, but combating this with selecting people by race and not solely on there academic and work method is wrong. They should be bringing in people who worked hard, not people just to fill a quota. Things like this have the opposite effect, actually causing racism from the people who lost their jobs so a company can look good in diversity numbers. By treating others different because of their race, it is by definition racism.
This is the main reason why the left wing is more racist then the right wing. Some liberals believe minority races aren't good enough to get into a good college so they need help.