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32 Total Votes
1

Yes

19 votes
10 comments
2

No

13 votes
9 comments
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tajshar2k says2015-06-30T05:43:29.9595568-05:00
Thank god education hasn't been privatized. Our already useless system will be even worse.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T08:39:33.4572867-05:00
@all who vote "No" Who exactly is going to pay for this? $2 Billion just for the first two years...We have no way of paying for it. We're already pushing a $100 Trillion in unfunded liabilities and looking at just about $20 Trillion in debt by the end of this presidency. We can't just keep spending without a way to pay for it; just ask Greece.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T08:44:24.3410771-05:00
I don't get why there is a poll for this sort of thing. It's not even able to have a second opinion brought up over it. Everyone who answers yes is disregarding the very definition of what a human right is and would be infringing on all other human rights in the process by making healthcare a requirement.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T08:47:15.4153683-05:00
Dont worry, they will all blame it on Bush when it fails.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T08:53:23.6896524-05:00
And thatll be their justification to raise taxes ... Instead of getting rid of it. Its the never ending progressive cycle. Don't do anything smart. Don't try to do any root cause analysis or anything ... Just keep the momentum going forward till the wheels fall off. Only about immediate reward/satisfaction.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T08:56:29.2774436-05:00
"Medical attention is, in fact, a human right." Humans looking out for other humans is not a human right. People have a choice to make with what they do with themselves and their time. They are not indentured to your service whenever you need help.
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T08:56:45.7221600-05:00
@freedombeforeequality I thought you were for freedom. What your saying, is that people should not have a right to be given help when they are DYING! Goodbye freedom.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T08:58:53.7034221-05:00
Doctors came up with their own medical code of ethics ... Thats their prerogative. Its not everyones responsibility to hold up to their code of ethics. If a person wants to be that type of individual, they can devote their life to that cause. The rest of us can choose to do what we want with our lives.
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T08:59:04.4158047-05:00
@Makesensepeopledont Maybe you didn't notice the 9th amendment which basically says that not all rights are listed in the constitution, and that just because it's not in the constitution, doesn't give the government the right to infringe on those rights.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:01:25.7233221-05:00
@retrogamer176 You do realize that ANYONE including illegal aliens can go to the hospital on my tax dime right? They were NEVER able to be turned away in recent history.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T09:02:21.0419859-05:00
"...Have a right to be given help when they are DYING! Goodbye freedom." Yes goodbye freedom to the people who have to perform those services on you. Live and let be. If youre dying it would be nice of them to help, you could show your appreciation by paying, but its certainly not their responsibility to do so. They do it under the assumption that you will cover the bill after the fact. Medical treatments can't all be pro bono.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:03:41.3189802-05:00
@retrogamer176 AH, so in your use of that amendment, we can basically do whatever the heck we want to without recourse? Come n man. Again I ask, who is going to pay for this free healthcare for all?
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T09:04:22.2737681-05:00
Hey, if you can give out medical care without infringing on anyone elses rights in the process ... You can call it a human right all you want. I'm telling you there is no way to make that happen.
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T09:04:30.1217191-05:00
@freedombeforeequality Hey, you, person who is not able to pay for that wound you received from an attempted murderer, I'm just gonna let you die.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T09:05:56.5241813-05:00
Promise to pay after the murderer is sued for damages. Thats where the law needs to step in so you can be reimbursed for that murderer having infringed on your rights.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:06:14.3756730-05:00
Also, how can medical care be a human right? Medical care is a man made thing, not natural. We have human rights as in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Not life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and whatever the heck else you can cry for without earning it.
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T09:06:33.2364357-05:00
@freedombeforeequality It's the doctor's job to save people's lives. How is acknowledging healthcare as a right infringing on other's rights?
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T09:06:53.7196296-05:00
Just like any insurance claim. The money is there and the company pursues the individual at fault to cover the damages.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T09:07:12.8455974-05:00
Murderers arent an act of god.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:08:14.8660428-05:00
@retrogamer176 Again, THEY CAN GO TO THE HOSPITAL FOR FREE. Even illegal immigrants, they've been doing it for decades. They come here to have babies in our hospitals and get sewn up after a fire fight with border patrol...Nobody turns them away. The doctor who does would be hit for murder.....IDIOT.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T09:09:06.7745883-05:00
How is acknowledging healthcare as a right infringing on other's rights? 'Job' entails getting paid for your services. What youre mentioning is a requirement to perform services regardless of payment. It infringes on the doctor and also on the next customer in line that has to absorb the costs of unpaid medical bills by the people who cant afford it.
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T09:09:29.4106236-05:00
@freedombeforeequality Can you explain why universal healthcare is still a debated topic here when it worked well, pretty much everywhere else? We're the richest country in the world, we can afford universal healthcare just fine.
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T09:10:57.9841810-05:00
@makesensepeopledont Again? When did you ever mention any of that?
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T09:11:20.0138048-05:00
Its not about whether it 'works well' or not. Those places dont have the same value for freedom that we do. They value keeping people alive and paying taxes more than they do a persons right to life, liberty, or property.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:12:08.7697428-05:00
@retrogamer176 If you are in this debate talking the way you are I shouldn't have to mention that, you should KNOW. However, look back in the comments a bit.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T09:12:30.8421126-05:00
Also not about what we can afford. Youre referring to my money when you say that. Youre making statements about spending my cash straight from my wallet. I dont want to spend it on that.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:16:20.9423942-05:00
@retrogamer176 You are EXACTLY the person that Democrats count on every election. The voters too lazy to do a darn second of research about anything...The voters that have NO idea what they are talking about and simply listen to their friends, co-workers, media, blogs, and everyone on the planet....And never take the time to check if it's true or not.
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T09:18:31.1242987-05:00
@makesensepeopledont Take democrats and replace it with republicans, and your right!
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:19:30.5362417-05:00
@retrogamer176 You think Universal Healthcare works in other nations? Tell you what, put up a debate on the topic and I'll debate you on it. You can be my first debate here.
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T09:21:01.0343238-05:00
@makesensepeopledont You mean second debate right?
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:21:37.7464897-05:00
@retrogamer176 Make the debate and send me challenge invite
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T09:23:00.7998879-05:00
I wouldnt debate that ... It does work elsewhere. If thats their mindset (slaves of the state) then they have no problem paying and everything works out hunky dory. I just contend that that is not what we are about here. It's what is supposed to make us unique. I don't get why everyone wants to be like those places. I rather like the diversity of the planet the way it is.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T09:25:23.4937710-05:00
No diversity means no shelter or group for someone to go be with when they disagree. And there is alot of disagreement in the world. Always will be. Making everything like the EU would be a disaster, no refuge for the free minds of the world.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:25:30.3789659-05:00
No, let him put his knowledge where his mouth is. I put together a 30 page argumentative essay that I used as a debate paper to stump my college logic and civil liberties teachers. Shut them up pretty darn fast. So let's do it. Maybe he'll learn something for once.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T09:26:35.4382175-05:00
Ok. Post link when you do. I'd like to see it.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:27:46.5981865-05:00
If he steps up to the table and does it, I will post the link here.
Diqiucun_Cunmin says2015-06-30T09:30:19.4805277-05:00
I come from an economy that ranks first in economic freedoms every year, and our medical industry is nationalised. In fact, it took a while for me to make sense of the healthcare discussions on DDO because the idea of not having nationalised medical services was quite foreign to me. I say that governments definitely should provide it. We're having problems of our own here, with resources, human resources in particular, running short in our hospitals, and there's been talks of an insurance system for the relatively well-off. This is likely the direction we'll take. I think a balance of public and private medical services will be best for any society.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:31:23.5735608-05:00
What nation are you from?
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T09:34:35.4906554-05:00
I thought the topic was weather it would work in the USA, not outside...
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:35:46.1797455-05:00
Topic is whether it is a RIGHT in America.
Diqiucun_Cunmin says2015-06-30T09:37:29.3445294-05:00
@MakesSense: Hong Kong. As you can see, my nation is obviously irrelevant since we have a fully independent economy. @retro: The title didn't make mention of any State or area...
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T09:38:17.2686510-05:00
@freedombeforeequality @makesensepeopledont As you two are debating whether or not I will make this debate I have been doing exactly that. And I'll post the link: http://www.debate.org/debates/Is-universal-healthcare-a-right-in-the-United-States-of-America/1/
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:39:20.6526699-05:00
Your nation isnt fully independent, it's fully dependent on the world's economy. Additionally, China is sitting on a weak, false economy and when it topples, it is going to tank EVERYONE.
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T09:41:06.5189844-05:00
@DC Hong Kong isn't even an independant nation. It's a city in china. I call it "the most country like country that isn't a country".
Diqiucun_Cunmin says2015-06-30T09:41:06.7971111-05:00
@MakesSense: I meant our economy is fully independent from China, and thus my nation is irrelevant, only my economy.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:43:15.8272721-05:00
If you are part of china, your economy is one in the same. You may try and separate yourself but when China falls, so does Hong Kong.
Diqiucun_Cunmin says2015-06-30T09:45:18.8944397-05:00
@MakesSense: Yeah, I'm sure there'll be deleterious effects if a recession occurs in the North. My point was that in a discussion about the medical system, only my economy, not my nation, is relevant...
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T09:47:14.3174603-05:00
Got it.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T10:04:01.4019453-05:00
"I come from an economy that ranks first in economic freedoms every year, and our medical industry is nationalised." That would constitute as an oxymoron, if your country wasnt also making economic freedoms in other areas enough so to weigh out the fact that medical is nationalized. Otherwise i dont know how you could rank first by doing that to an entire market like that.
Diqiucun_Cunmin says2015-06-30T10:11:02.0016336-05:00
@FBE: Yep, low profits and salaries tax, no tariffs, no capital gains tax, etc. The government makes lots of money by selling land at high prices, enough to fund public medicine, housing and education and maintain fiscal surpluses every year.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T10:14:40.6398381-05:00
One of the reasons you guys are living on borrowed time...It's called a false economy...Like a house of cards my friend.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T10:19:35.2832167-05:00
So I think im mistaking your use of 'free' then. You mean it is free and independent from other nations ... But certainly not free in the sense that its people are free to spend their money as they wish. You are referring to the government as the sovereign entity and not the individuals its lording over.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T10:20:49.5018446-05:00
The USA using it has to compete with the fact that we put the individual and his freedoms before that of the government. Or at least we should be.
Diqiucun_Cunmin says2015-06-30T10:26:35.1647787-05:00
@FBE: Actually, we are. http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking The US is ranked 12th, 11 places below us. I'm sure you have capital gains tax, higher income tax and far more government subsidies than us.
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T10:26:41.1864945-05:00
@FBE I'm starting to think your against taxes in general....
retrogamer176 says2015-06-30T11:30:00.3275535-05:00
@FBE You... Do realise the american public does NOT want the USA spending over half of our tax dollars on the military right?
xhammy says2015-06-30T11:37:16.0373602-05:00
You understand that America spends more than the entirety of its tax dollars on health care right?
Harper says2015-06-30T13:36:13.1406475-05:00
To answer this question, one first needs to know where we get our rights from. The answer lies in the essential purpose of government itself, which is to protect people's lives and property from being stolen, damaged, or otherwise manipulated by others. That is the basic reason why we have government and so everyone living under a government deserves to have their life and property protected. Thus, you have a *right* to your life and property. Notice that these rights are preventative, meaning that the government protects you from someone else encroaching on your life and property; however, you don't have a right to be taken care of, especially at someone else's expense. Forcing a doctor to serve you violates his right to his own services (which, of course, are his property).
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T14:10:50.0827107-05:00
I lean towards no tax, to be sure. But I only do so as an advocate for personal responsibility. If people want to come together and create pools of money to get things built, great for them. Everyone should have a choice in the matter though. It shouldnt be "pay or go to jail".
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-06-30T14:14:39.5045998-05:00
"... American public does NOT want the USA spending over half of our tax dollars on the military ..." So what then? In lieu of pulling dollars from military funding they think creating more programs is going to help? Just pull the funding ... Simple. It doesnt need to be substituted by another program to soak up the spare funds. Give the money back to the people who paid it in. Taxes get raised for specific reasons ... When those reasons go away the money should go in turn. It shouldnt just get forgotten about and dragged along into new programs that no one wants.
tajshar2k says2015-06-30T15:58:46.5823336-05:00
We are spending #1 in the world, yet we rank last among developing countries. Our healthcare system is fragmented, expensive and useless. We can switch to single payer, cut the costs and budget and save money.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-06-30T16:03:25.1880913-05:00
@tajshar2k I am in the process of putting together my first arguments on a debate for this topic as can be seen here: http://www.Debate.Org/debates/Is-universal-healthcare-a-right-in-the-United-States-of-America/1/ The cost to performance ratio is going to be one of my points so stay tuned to that debate for your explanation on that my friend.
tajshar2k says2015-06-30T20:02:37.1019198-05:00
Looking forward to it.
Stefy says2015-06-30T23:22:03.6509792-05:00
Harper: There is a continuing, crnturies old debate in the purpose of government. What you daid is just what you believe it should be. Not what it objectively is.
Darthidiot says2015-07-01T08:45:32.9449649-05:00
This is one of the reasons why I gave up on my conservative beliefs and became a liberal. When I was a Baptist, we were taught that Jesus helped the poor. Nothing we are doing in this country is helping the poor, and instead it creates fear and inequality. Lets start with Single payer healthcare. Studies have already shown it would be cheaper for us in the long run, and we can definitely afford to cut the budget and still have healthcare that is much more effective than what we have now. I wouldn't mind being taxed a little bit more, so millions of children in the country will be able to receive care they need. Bernie Sanders already said he was going to do this, by heavily taxing the billionaire class.
Harper says2015-07-01T11:47:35.6042120-05:00
@Stefy I want to keep the comment short so refer to post #31 here: http://www.debate.org/forums/religion/topic/68248/2/ . And honestly, I would like to hear your opinion of the essential purpose of government and how it does not coincide with my own conception of it being first and foremost about protection of life and property.
FreedomBeforeEquality says2015-07-02T09:21:19.0605657-05:00
@DarthIdiot It doesnt sound like youve rid yourself of your baptist beleifs ... But the rest of us don't necessarily belive that jesus helping the poor is a reason why we should be doing it. Jesus was also interacting with the rich all the same. They just had different lessons to learn about their sin versus poor sinners. Never was he roping up the poor and telling them that it was their right to exact funds from the rich. He never tried to instill a desire in the poor to take from the rich. All of that notion is still sinful, still morally wrong. Whether you do it through democratic government or actually holding them up in an alley and robbing them ... Its all the same.

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