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kbub says2014-04-30T08:56:23.2193990-05:00
I think you mean "a" religion instead of "the" religion.
Comrade_Silly_Otter says2014-04-30T09:06:30.4181990-05:00
I am not making assumptions on 9/11.. Just putting that there.
Zylorarchy says2014-04-30T09:08:46.7621990-05:00
@termimaa, my comment was at religion generally, not just Islam. All religions have blood on their hands. I judge Islam like any other religion, off of real life evidence, and there are so many more than "One Islamic terrorist group". Not to mention history itself, shows the bloody conflicts caused by religion and not just Islam. But as for your Qu'ran statements. It has many verses which openly encourage violence (as does the Bible). For example: 1) Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing... But if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" 2) Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." 3) Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…" 4) Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" Just look at those, the last one even states about causing "terror" into those who disbelieve! The Qu'ran does have many teachings of peace within, but you CANNOT deny, it equally encourages violence and openly encourages violence against "non-believers".
Cat_Lover says2014-04-30T09:18:00.3727463-05:00
No Knub, I mean the.
temimaa says2014-04-30T09:47:25.9205990-05:00
@Zylorarchy those are not the whole verses, you need to take a look at the whole verse to understand the full meaning. Taking bits and pieces of verses make them seem unfair and unjust. For example, you quoted, 'Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out" ' the missing part of the verse is: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors (...) " The context is if MUSLIMS GET ATTACKED then Muslims have the right to attack back, and the context is very clear on that, the theme comes into play on verse 190, not verse 191 which non-Muslims quote alone, the non-Muslim should quote from verse 190 onwards, and once doing so one will see that this is a defensive war, not an offensive one, if people attack the Muslims then the Muslims have the right to attack back, and that is exactly what the verses are saying. The verses even say that if the people who started the fight begin to stop and make peace than we too must also stop and make peace as well, far from terrorism. Also, you quoted, Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." This is directed to the non-believers, it states that God will punish them for not believing, it doesn't say anything about hurting non-believers, let alone killing. Killing is a huge sin in Islam and it is stated that killing one person is equivalent to killing the whole world. It is a sin that cannot be forgiven. It also says Muslims should try and guide others to the righteous path, but if they resist, that's their choice, at the end of the day, we all answer for ourselves, and people like Osama Bin Laden can't be called Muslims, killing can never be in the name of Islam. Another quote from the Qur'an is "You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion." Need I say more?
Zylorarchy says2014-04-30T10:02:56.4459535-05:00
@temimaa, Yes but you did not even argue about God punishing the non-believers. You avoided what said punishment was, although it is stated that "non-believers" will suffer "terrible agony". Terrible agony sounds like pain and killing to me. And as I say, it is not just Islam, religion (irrelevant of what is written in the books) has a track record of war and violence. Why is it that statistically 1 in 7 YOUNG Muslims believe that if a Muslim converts to another religion, or atheism; that said convert should be executed? Why does an ICM Poll state that 20% of British Muslims sympathise with the 7/7 Bombers? And that 1 in 4 believe said bombings were justified. Why is it that 16% of young Muslims believe that state terrorism in Belgium is "acceptable". A shocking 18% of British Muslims would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terrorist attack. I mean, the figures just don't lie... If violence is so terrible, why do at least 1 in 4 Muslims not reject violence against civilians? It appears to me that the "war" against "non-believers" is very much an offensive one. Thankfully most of these worrying figures do not go above 20% and so yes, extremism is a minority. But it cannot be claimed that Islam is THE religion of peace, when often at least 20% of the Islamic population believe violence (in some shape or form) is an acceptable practice.
temimaa says2014-04-30T10:46:08.9295435-05:00
@Zylorarchy I did not argue about God punishing the non-believers, because it IS stated that God will punish the non-believers. God, not people. People punishing other people for not believing is a sin. It is stated that God will punish those who don't believe in him on the day of judgment in Jahannam (hellfire). If one doesn't believe in the day of judgment or God, what does he have to fear? No Muslim is allowed to physically hurt another (unless it's for defense), those who do are bad Muslims. And if one doesn't believe in Islam and its teaching, what is there to fear? Nothing, because one wouldn't have to live with the fear of going to hell in the afterlife. The Qur'an states that loyal followers will go to heaven while the non-believers "will suffer terrible agony". Muslims fear hell, as well as people of other religions, but that doesn't affect non-believers or atheists as they don't receive physical punishment from God in this life. Physical punishments by God will happen after the day of judgement, according to the Qur'an. Till then, no Muslim is permitted to harm a non-believer. As for the polls and statistics, they might be biased. How can they be trusted? Is there proof that they are not biased?
Comrade_Silly_Otter says2014-04-30T10:50:45.7029693-05:00
What a loving God you have. Having people have a opinion and Free will and punish them for believing what they are taught at a young age and/or what they believe? Yea, no thank you.
Cat_Lover says2014-04-30T11:07:22.1466462-05:00
Comrade_Silly_Otter says2014-04-30T11:09:25.9686920-05:00
I was sarcastic about the loving God thing, Oh well
Cat_Lover says2014-04-30T11:36:51.3156259-05:00
I know you were being sarcastic
Zylorarchy says2014-05-02T16:09:02.1165754-05:00
@temimaa, sorry I have been busy, and still am so can't type out excessively long replies. Though I would like to point out (in case you are wondering), I am not "racist" against Muslims. Not at all, I disagree with Islam but that does not mean I judge people for it. It is like I am against hunting, but I do not dislike people who do it. Anyway, I must admit, although you point that Muslims cannot harm non-believers, yet "the religion of PEACE" follows a God that physically causes terrible agony to those, just because they chose not to believe. I am sorry, but if a leader of a country executed and caused pain to those in which did not share with his beliefs, I would say said leader is a tyrant. And as for the statistics and bias. No I cannot prove they were non-biased, but they all came from a very wide, different selection of resources. And since this wide selection all indicate more or less, that at least some (more than a tiny minority) hold extreme views, I would say that they are fairly accurate. Again you may think I am "racist", but if I was arguing about Christianity, I could probably find similar figures for extreme views. Why? Because I believe, and evidence highly supports, that religion (mostly as a whole), causes just as much violence and unrest, as it does peace.

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