Is it time to abolish affirmative action?

Posted by: Teaparty1

Affirmative action was a system made to benefit African Americans, implemented to help them overcome a competitive disadvantage they had due to being enslaved for many years. Should we still have this policy?

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41 Total Votes
1

Yes, end affirmative action.

150 years after slavery was abolished, black Americans have proven themselves to be fully capable of achieving success without the "help" of lowered standards. Many studies have shown that lowering standards for minorities, actually hurts them. Peop... le that take advantage of lowered standards, and are placed in a university or class that they are not prepared for, are set up for FAILURE. That might explain high black drop out rates   more
31 votes
10 comments
2

No, we should still have affrmative action.

Please explain your answer.
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TBR says2015-08-16T18:44:50.1756032Z
Affirmative Action insures we have BETTER actual candidates for schools and jobs. The "adjustment" is better methodology than straight test scores.
Renegader says2015-08-16T19:27:31.0831907Z
I think racially based affirmative action should be ended. Economic based affirmative action would be more fair and less divisive.
TBR says2015-08-16T19:47:03.6539356Z
@Renegader - I don't disagree. However, I think it should be IN ADDITION to racial based AA.
tajshar2k says2015-08-16T22:55:31.6516223Z
@TBR do you have sources?
TBR says2015-08-16T23:38:42.8091090Z
Sources for what? How AA works?
TBR says2015-08-16T23:39:11.4679026Z
How to properly read baseline testing?
JDuB says2015-08-17T15:33:50.9863863Z
Change affirmative action to target lower income individuals rather than race.
TBR says2015-08-17T15:44:11.4009184Z
One component that keeps race a valuable part of this is generational systemic education problems. As far back as I look in my family, men have had advanced degrees. Back several generations, all women in my family have undergraduate or master degrees. Not to go too far out, but in the last three generations there have been college level professors. The point being, we carry a legacy of education that is not common or was not available to minorities. This is part of what manifests as lower standardized testing starting in adolescence for minority students. Using only one scoring metric - discarding additional data - only ignores useful information in selecting the best potential students. It is very shortsighted to feel AA is "unfair". It is in fact, the opposite. It is fair and smart.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T02:27:25.2561105Z
Renegader, Yeah, let's end a program designed to lessen the issue of racial bias against minorities that is still very much present in education and employment by replacing it with something economic based, even though it's minorities who are disproportionately affected by poverty and discrimination compared to white people. How is that fair? Because white people who are otherwise never discriminated against because of their socioeconomic status when applying for schools and jobs will then have an even larger upper hand over minorities who tend to live in communities where the poverty is much more concentrated and systemic? That isn't fair, especially because, using the same logic you use for race-based AA, it would still "discriminate" against wealthier people. Would it not? You are cherry picking your position on this issue. You are only against something when you feel white people aren't included, no matter how compelling the argument is for why it is still needed.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T02:33:09.3007159Z
All in all, no, I do not think it should be abolished, because minorities, especially African Americans, non-white Latino-Americans, Southeast Asian-Americans, Native Americans, and Middle Eastern Americans are STILL subjected to systemic racial bias against them when it comes to education and employment. It would be ridiculous to assume that because you THINK we live in a "post-racial" society that suddenly things like AA are obsolete when that clearly isn't the case based on recent data. Also you made the faulty assumption of assuming AA is just about black Americans, it's not. Hispanics, Natives and women, including white women, are also included in it. And white Americans, both men and women, benefit from it more than anyone else. If anything should be reformed, it's that.
TBR says2015-08-18T02:37:07.3582419Z
Brian, we could beat this issue into people 24x7 and all they would see is 'black guy getting a break he didn't deserve'. The issue has been so completely cooped by misinformation that I doubt the general public will ever get it. Admission personal, however, are plugged in, and know why it is smart. Want the best students? Apply smart selection processes like AA
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T02:46:25.5298199Z
TBR, I agree. It's because of the white supremacist narrative that has become mainstream, even many white liberals are blinded by this blatant misinformation and ignorance. They have been duped into believing that, because they are white (and often times male), that they are being oppressed and subjected to "reversed discrimination" which clearly isn't the case seeing as they still systemically have the upper hand. They simply don't listen to reason, or bother to accept the fact. They feed into the same tired white power/genocide propaganda. Many of them also blame their failures on minorities and AA to make excuses for their crap lives and incompetence.
TBR says2015-08-18T02:54:00.9903395Z
Brian. You may be unusual, but I ask directly. How many times did you take the SAT? Did you have a class, or prep work? Do you know anyone who struggled to pay the 50 bucks? I am not saying white students get all this handed to them, but I can generalize. When you are looking at stacks of applicants, the only way to start the sort is use metrics... All of them available to you. If my job is to find the nest student, and I am looking at a white student with a score of x, and a black student with a score of x(plus or minus some percent) it is smart selection to take the minority student. Simple as that.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T02:55:37.2897568Z
Briantheliberal , Actually South East Asians are more likely to be put in post secondary compared to Whites. Its because their culture revolves around education.
TBR says2015-08-18T02:58:14.2267628Z
I think, I may be wrong, but Brian was saying the same thing. Asians will be part of the group that you might refer to as 'discriminated' against.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T02:59:18.8499018Z
Looking at a white student with a score of x, and a black student with a score of x(plus or minus some percent) It isn't really affirmative action if the black guy has a score higher than the white guy. It just means that he is more qualified than he is. Its unfair if its minus some percent. Thats why I don't like raced based affirmative action.
TBR says2015-08-18T02:59:31.3914843Z
Sorry, reread his comment, and you are right. As he phrased the sentence, I disagree with that singular point
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T03:00:24.3471969Z
TBR, I will message you about that.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T03:05:44.0088460Z
Tajshar2k, I think you mean East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) and South Asians (Indian, Pakistani). Southeast Asians (Vietnamese, Filipino, Thai, Hmong, Cambodian) in America are still disproportionately affected by poverty, more so than whites. Cultural differences aside, many live in low-income homes and still face immeasurable amounts of discrimination compared to their East Asian counterparts. Even in metropolitan areas like New York, East Asians face a lot of issues with poverty, employment and education. www.aafny.org/doc/WorkingButPoor.pdf
TBR says2015-08-18T03:06:38.3300057Z
Look, you want some test to be the only factor, and that is just not smart use of data. Of I were tasked with writing an algorithm, and excluded additional rich datasets, I would be a fool. A test that is only slightly higher or lower is not a good reason to discard the choice. I would be smart to evaluate additional data- like race when I know it effects the other metrics. It effects those other metrics negatively, but not qualitatively. That is, I can draw a line between better candidates with slightly lower scores on ONE metric using the additional metric - race.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T03:08:14.3470097Z
Also I must add, the issue extends far beyond just someone being more qualified. Race plays a huge role in who gets hired and why for many different reasons. That is why AA exists.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T03:08:20.6125982Z
Ya I was thinking of Indians and Chinese my bad, but in the example you mentioned, wouldn't it be better if you used AA on an economic basis, rather than race being a factor? I'm sure some Vietnamese people are rich in America or middle class at-least. If thats the case, the purpose of AA is defeated, and you really are only preventing some qualified guy from being selected.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T03:09:28.9292147Z
I understand that point. Some employees simply do not want to hire guys named "Demar and "Daquan". Those guys might as well be qualified.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T03:09:56.8486889Z
Then again, they could work somewhere else.
TBR says2015-08-18T03:11:32.9080115Z
Brian, I like to keep the discussion in education for a couple reasons. One, the college system has done the best job of implementing proper AA systems. Two, it is a clear example of the success. The employment picture is too muddled. Outright raciest hiring is a huge problem, and AA is like spitting in the wind for that issue.
TBR says2015-08-18T03:18:33.3745778Z
@tajshar2k - "Then again, they could work somewhere else." Well that sort of destroys the entire "best guy for the job" concept, right? Look, you can't kick on minority's on the one hand for AA, and then say "well, tough luck you are being discriminate against" and THEN square it equity! Just fu** that.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T03:22:09.9487000Z
Tajshar2k, you have to understand how AA works. It doesn't automatically favor minorities and women over white men. It is almost entirely based on quotas. It's not based on individual cases. In colleges for example, they usually accept the most qualified in each group based on their proportion to the overall population. I think that is what TBR was trying to point out as well. They don't just look at you and say "You are too white for this school/job" it just doesn't work like that.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T03:23:48.4167562Z
That would the loss of the company and not the employee really. Its America, he's gonna find a place to work, and employers need to realize if they keep their racist attitudes they won't make profit. Simple as that. The whole culture thing of blacks being stupid will vanish.
mwedwards says2015-08-18T03:26:35.4332679Z
Ok timeout, AA has wrecked black individuals' education. Have you seen the dropout rates for high school and college? Now in the beginning it did well yes, however in todays age we must eliminate it, it is no longer working. It is not preparing people correctly for what happens in college and beyond because it lowers the standards for success in the public schools for the black individuals. That is not good, and the best solution is to make the standards equal for all so that we can all be better prepared for college which lowers the standards for no one.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T03:27:17.4755374Z
Not being racist here, but the culture in South Chicago isn't really a great one. I know guys who have the oppurtunity to be successful, but they choose guns or grades. The problem is also on the other end. I saw this speech made by a black man, and he had some good points. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p04BeElmr0o
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T03:32:54.1557090Z
Mwedwards makes a good point. It also ties in a little with what I said above.
triangle.128k says2015-08-18T03:33:07.7652917Z
Considering African Americans usually make less on average regarding income (unfortunately), I think economically based affirmative action would be better.
TBR says2015-08-18T03:36:40.5455468Z
@mwedwards & tajshar2k - Both of you are connecting... Nothing. AA is not responsible for the issues of South Chicago, or drop-out rates. Do you listen to what you are saying? That just doesn't come close making sense.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T03:38:44.7535430Z
Mwedwards, where is the evidence for that? I thought the only thing wrecking black individuals' education was poor funding for educational institutions in black communities, resulting in lower test scores, fewer resources and educational opportunities etc.. You can't say something is wrong with education among blacks and automatically blame Affirmative Action without evidence that it is the cause.
mwedwards says2015-08-18T03:39:13.1769252Z
@TBR: Please expand. I am not sure where you are coming from when you say "That just doesn't come close making sense." Explain to me what you don't understand.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T03:40:50.3811483Z
Triangle, except you forgot to consider that poverty among black Americans is much more concentration and systemically is cause by what you just mentioned, which race-based AA is meant to prevent.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T03:41:11.4256832Z
Concentrated*
TBR says2015-08-18T03:43:47.2550821Z
@mwedwards - Sure. I will explain real slow. You have no casual link between AA and dropout rates. It makes no scene because of this definition "sense - a feeling that something is the case".
mwedwards says2015-08-18T03:44:23.3381134Z
@brian: A simple google search will give you the dropout rates. The lowering of standards part is more logical, however there is a video I could show you it you are interested that talks about it. About the communities part, well, frankly it is you liberals that are keeping them there. I propose a solution that would allow black students to be allowed to go to other schools. Unfortunately it is the liberals who have opposed this for some reason, as a result the black community is essentially stuck in already bad schools that lower the standards for success, and then any that make it to college are not prepared nearly enough. AA is the driving force though, it doesn't prepare students for real college that gives NO ONE any leeway.
TBR says2015-08-18T03:45:51.6028446Z
@mwedwards - Now just more babbling about liberals. How about you show us this link between AA and dropout rates. We can all look up the dropout rate, that is not at issue. Show us the link you think exists.
mwedwards says2015-08-18T03:46:47.4050369Z
@TBR, the link is a logical one. AA lowers standards, as such many are not prepared for college and many dropout. Where is the logical fallacy here?
TBR says2015-08-18T03:47:46.5832453Z
Do you all think that AA gives any minority a place in the college of their choice? Do you think it magically makes a 2.0 a 4.0? Just what do you think is happening in admissions? You don't seem to know squat about how it works, but are damn sure you hate it.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T03:48:06.9343467Z
Mwedwards, OR you can provide a link to a valid source proving AA is the main cause of all the things you mentioned instead of making illogical and faulty correlations between issues that have nothing to do with one another. Leave your partisan, anti-liberal rhetoric out of this conversation and provide the evidence we asked for.
Renegader says2015-08-18T03:49:43.3741649Z
Here comes Brian to beat a dead horse. Anyways, how was my proposal unfair. Minorities would receive most of the benefit from an economic AA anyways. You don't realize that by inserting race into everything you create more hate and division. If you want people to come together and unify, you must not cherry pick when race is allowed to be a factor to discriminate. Most modern "liberals" don't understand this aspect as they are strongly inclined to defend their meaningless identity politics. I know some very poor white people who never had college graduates in their family who could also benefit from my proposal. You are mad because you think everyone has to cater to people on racial lines. Its time to stop with the identity politics and race baiting, we are all Americans, and all humans. Stop dividing us.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T03:50:01.2206793Z
TBR, apparently he thinks AA is a magic wand and with a simply wave someone with no academic prowess can become an honor student.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T03:53:32.9920368Z
@TBR Where did I say AA was responsible for the way South Chicago is? I'm saying the problem isn't only that black are being put at a disadvantage, but some of them create that disadvantage for themselves. Thats why I brought up Chicago.
Renegader says2015-08-18T03:54:44.4812880Z
Also you said my economic idea would discriminate against wealthy Americans, but no it wouldn't, as they already have the money for college. Didn't think about that one did you mate. It is not even the same logic because at least much more of the country would accept this idea and it would stop with all the divisive bullshit. "You are only against something when you feel white people aren't included." The same logic could be reversed as you only care about something when either whites are excluded or race is not included as some kind of factor. I care about all Americans, and if a post-racial society is your goal (Isn't it?) than you would not be disagreeing with me.
TBR says2015-08-18T03:55:41.1156581Z
@mwedwards - OK. So... There are no other factors in dropout rates that you can think of? You connect it with AA based on you very rational "not prepared" argument. How about you dig up ONE substation point.
mwedwards says2015-08-18T03:55:46.2636911Z
@TBR and Brian: HA! You both are scared of me pointing out that it is Liberals who have supported keeping black students in communities where they can't be successful. And instead of actually trying to argue with me about the warrants of my claim, that AA is a driver of the dropout rates for black students, you have instead only made remarks such as "illogical and faulty correlations". What is faulty? If you are so quick to say so, then why not support your statement with an actual argument? Anyway, here is a video from someone with better credentials than I who can give you some better insight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VBAEJlR4pk
mwedwards says2015-08-18T03:57:42.2972349Z
@TBR: I did. Liberals won't let black students go to other schools where they can be more successful. AA and this work hand in hand at creating the dropout rates we have seen today.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T03:57:44.6528500Z
"Here comes Brian to beat a dead horse." - Here comes Renegader leaving what little maturity he had wherever he left it. Your proposal itself is not unfair, it's unrealistic and doesn't solve the underlying issue at hand - systemic racial bias against minorities in education and employment. Last I checked, it is not white people living in poverty who are discriminated against when it comes to these aspects of life. There is no data concluding that living in poverty has a substantially negative affect on white people when it comes to college education and finding jobs, therefore there is no need to base AA specifically on socioeconomic status, especially when it affects minorities on a much deeper and systemic level. I am not completely opposing it either, but saying that we should abolish AA based on race and replace it with a similar program based solely on income still places minorities at a disadvantage, even if poverty disproportionately affects minorities in the first place. Address that issue, don't override it.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T03:58:14.5270415Z
Simply putting all the blame on racial disparity is not realistic. Don't like using this word, but "black culture" is also partly responsible. Even if you go to a place like Canada, you see the exact same thing happening here in the United States. Blacks making wrong choices are screwing up their lives.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T03:58:59.6860095Z
@TBR Watch the video I posted. The man talks sense.
TBR says2015-08-18T03:59:22.6224480Z
@mwedwards - Wait a min. You make the positive statement AA is responsible for the dropout rate, don't back it up, then want us to jump through the hoops of disproving your silliness? Enough. You are not a serious person.
TBR says2015-08-18T04:02:11.9917637Z
@Renegader - I agreed with you (up thread) and clarified why race is still a good component of AA. It SHOULD include economic factors right along with race.
TBR says2015-08-18T04:03:11.7093950Z
@mwedwards - No you haven't. You have simply added an additional NON SUPPORTED argument "liberals arent allowing students....". Does the basic concept of backing your argument escape you?
triangle.128k says2015-08-18T04:03:29.7738623Z
@briantheliberal I'm not sure what you meant by that.
mwedwards says2015-08-18T04:03:29.8986631Z
@TBR: I did. I provided a logical explanation for why AA is a driver. So far neither you or Brian have provided any sources that back up your comments either, so I don't think you have any ground to say that. I also did provide you with a video, that's more than you've done.
mwedwards says2015-08-18T04:04:19.1013785Z
@TBR: Did you watch the video?
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:04:24.8266152Z
"you said my economic idea would discriminate against wealthy Americans, but no it wouldn't, as they already have the money for college." - Actually I did think about that and it is still a ridiculous argument. Even if they can afford to pay for college, it is still discrimination against wealthier people is it not? They do not choose be able to pay for college just as white people do not choose to benefit from the unequal power structures that have been established at the expense of minority students, including the systemic racial bias that favors them.
TBR says2015-08-18T04:06:11.3107550Z
@briantheliberal - Wealth students can go to many colleges, even with shit grades. The choices for poor, and minority students is very limited. When you have the entirety of the countries university and private college system to pick from, you will find a good school.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:07:33.5254248Z
Tajshar2k, you realize that your generalizations and distaste for "black culture" is exactly why AA exists? Because people assume negative things about black people as a group, and do not judge them on an individual basis. They are people, with their own lives, personalities, and experiences. You cannot blame an entire culture for something that isn't even entirely responsible for the institutionalized racism against black people.
TBR says2015-08-18T04:11:04.3295761Z
@mwedwards - As I said above, I don't know what anyone wants proof of. I am not making baseless assertion. Find me one, and I will back it with.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:11:52.4090843Z
Triangle, what I meant was, the poverty that is present in various ethnic groups differ greatly from one another. Minorities, blacks in particular, were effectively marginalized into poverty through generations of systemic prejudice and discrimination, something poor whites did not, and still do not face. And the poverty in black communities is much more concentrated, affecting not only their communities, but their schools, their livelihood, and their ability to get decent jobs.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T04:12:04.9295286Z
Brian, you cannot ignore the reality. I'm not saying every black, but its primarily that gang culture that is keeping them from becoming successful. Many of them make the choice to choose guns over school. And its why such "culture" was established as being a negative one. My point is, the problem for blacks being discriminated is the faults of both sides.
TBR says2015-08-18T04:16:05.9324528Z
@tajshar2k - I am going to tread lightly on you with that last post. We could go into all the issue that make "thug life" happen. Here is the point. You still have not connected this, or any other point, with a negative for AA. Say black culture sucks - hell almost all rap I hate. I think "them black guys should pull their paints up". That's really ME talking. Also, black people smell bad, are you with me on that one? OK. So, with all that said, how does that make AA a problem?
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T04:18:05.1734738Z
I do not just see this correlation in just the U.S, but its also very similar in Canada. Blacks were treated much better there, yet you still see these types of issues.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:23:11.9026400Z
Tajshar2k, that's like saying white people who are poor are all disadvantaged because they are all ignorant rednecks, who worship guns, chew tobacco, and have bar fights all day. Do you ever hear this? No, because white people aren't judged this way. They don't automatically have negative attributes tied to their racial identity. I understand what you are trying to say and I assure you you are wrong. And because you are the not the only person who thinks this way, black people who do not fit into what you describe (gang loving, thug types who only care about the streets and money or whatever) are wrongfully associated with this stereotypical nonsense. Intelligent and hardworking black people vastly outnumber the ones you mentioned. You have turned a social issue, into a black issue. The ones who aren't succeeding in life because of gangs should not be wrongfully associated with every black person. You are only perpetuating racist stereotypes.
Teaparty1 says2015-08-18T04:24:30.5318364Z
@Brian @TBR Theoretical: A university allows a minority student to attend their college, even though they have a 2.0 GPA and the average GPA of students is 3.5. That student is up against tough classes/professors because most of their students are much better academically. This student will either push himself much harder than if he went to a more fitting university, and pass, or drop out because it's too hard. Is lowering academic standards and allowing that unqualified student into the university because of his/her race, helping that student?
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T04:24:40.5624151Z
The problem is that the point of AA is keep minorities from being discriminated, but my point is some of them are creating those negative impressions because of the choices they make. If they themselves are digging a grave for themselves, then the whole purpose of protecting them from being discriminated is useless, because some of them made people think like that.
Renegader says2015-08-18T04:26:32.0675231Z
@Brian There is no way you can convince me that racial identity is a larger threat to getting an education than economic barriers, and all of the data and evidence backs me up. You are living in a fantasy land. The reason wealthy people aren't affected is because of all the different choices they have for education. When you have no money, you have no help with education. "There is no data concluding that living in poverty has a substantially negative affect on white people when it comes to college education." Are you kidding, in this country education is synonymous with how much money you have to afford it. "Last I checked, it is not white people living in poverty who are discriminated against when it comes to these aspects of life." You realize there are actually a lot of poor white people who it does affect. Not nearly as many as minorities but still quite a sizable amount. You aren't really making a strong argument here.
mwedwards says2015-08-18T04:26:39.8675731Z
@TBR: Literally, I think you are smart enough to know what idea I am talking about. The idea that AA is not a driving force of dropout rates amongst black students. In your last comment you said that I had to support all of my arguments with evidence, I have, in the context of when I said them. You have not. For you to say "As I said above, I don't know what anyone wants proof of. I am not making baseless assertion. Find me one, and I will back it with." is putting us at very different levels of expectation when we are giving our arguments. By the logic you have provided I am supposed to provide proof or make logical arguments to support my claim whereas you only have to say something without backing it up. Let's level the playing field a little please. Anyways, I would like you to support the idea that AA is not a driving force of dropout rates amongst black students, and also I would like you watch the video.
TBR says2015-08-18T04:26:59.9231390Z
@Teaparty1 - Yea, you need to look at how it really works. You are very far off.
mwedwards says2015-08-18T04:27:26.3870713Z
@brian: Have you watched the video?
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T04:28:00.8320921Z
And, like Brian said, we shouldn't judge people because of their culture, so using economic based AA makes a lot more sense.
mwedwards says2015-08-18T04:29:43.7927521Z
@tajshar2k: The same principle will still apply though. The standards will be lowered, therefore the poor would not be as prepared for college.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:33:24.3157657Z
Teaparty1, "Theoretical: A university allows a minority student to attend their college, even though they have a 2.0 GPA and the average GPA of students is 3.5." - The thing is, that is all that will ever be is theoretical because that's not how it works. There is no university in this country with that high a GPA average accepting minorities with a 2.0. Stick to reality.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:35:14.0780693Z
Renegader, you clearly didn't bother reading anything I said. I am done wasting my time with you. As usual you straw man my points, take what you want out of my argument, distort them then argue against the distorted versions you created. Then ridicule me for something I didn't say. Pathetic. You're dismissed.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:35:52.5947162Z
Tajshar2k, pretty sure culture and race are two different things but okaaay.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:37:31.5149503Z
Mwedwards, no actually I haven't watched whatever video you are talking about. I asked for a link anyway, with evidence from actual educational and sociological studies backing up your original points. Not YouTube propaganda.
Renegader says2015-08-18T04:40:52.9122413Z
@Brian Nah I guess we reached an impasse, no need to cry about it. This type of thing happens 90% of the time on online debates.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T04:42:48.5089823Z
@briantheliberal both of them do go hand in hand with each other.
Midnight1131 says2015-08-18T04:44:49.3903143Z
Dmussi12 is suggesting that every descendent of white people from should compensate every descendent of a slave from that time, because that'll make a difference right.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:46:16.1463133Z
Renegader, who is crying? I am used to you being completely dishonest in every debate we have by now. That is how you are when people disagree with you and you can't argue effectively. Now you are claiming I said "racial identity is a larger threat to getting an education than economic barriers" when I clearly said race and income are directly correlated and poverty affects different ethnic groups in different way, with minorities being the most disadvantaged and heavily affected. I said nothing about income not being an important factor, in fact I do remember saying I am not completely opposed to the idea of including income in AA but just that I thought abolishing the race aspect was a bad idea. You completely changed what I said and claimed I said something else, which is fallacious in an argument. It is not valid, and THAT is why I can no longer take you seriously.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:48:08.8882360Z
Tajshar2k, really? Please tell me what my race, my ethnicity, and name at least 3 elements of MY culture if you can.
mwedwards says2015-08-18T04:48:09.8140448Z
@brian: Just because something is on Youtube, doesn't mean it is not educational. You should consider watching it, it does support my claim, and that is what you have been asking me to do. You know, support my claim. The man who is speaking is an intelligent man, you can look up his credentials if you would like to. You seem to have taken 0 time into investigating the source I gave you, so I can only conclude that It does support my claim and is from a reliable source.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T04:52:25.8115754Z
@briantheliberal I'm pretty sure you are African-American, I do not know much about you. Again, I never said this applies to everybody. Its the general census.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T04:52:50.2662084Z
@briantheliberal You seem very hostile at me. I mean no harm just saying.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:53:39.2117770Z
Mwedwards, I am not interested in any source you provide unless is it supported by and contains information from valid studies in the area of discussion. You claimed that the issues associated with black people and education is directly correlated with and caused by Affirmative Action. That is what I want to see, not a YouTube commentary, and if you cannot provide that then I have no choice by to dismiss you as well until you do. Thanks.
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:54:22.1534142Z
But* I cannot keep using my phone for this...
briantheliberal says2015-08-18T04:56:58.7214356Z
Tajshar2k, I didn't mean to come off that way, unless you are saying that because you think I am African-American. But I regret to inform you you are incorrect.
mwedwards says2015-08-18T05:04:48.2600917Z
@brian: Did you not read my prior comment? The person talking is very intelligent and is a reliable source. Also, I never said AA was the sole factor, just a large piece. This I backed up with the video and logical arguments. On the other hand you have provided logical arguments, but nothing else. By the way I did answer your logical argument by pointing out that if black students were allowed to go to other schools, then they would have the same opportunities as everyone else. Please don't be a hypocrite. If you are not going to provide evidence when you make a claim, then I should not have to as well. Thanks.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T05:08:12.1392434Z
"unless you are saying that because you think I am African-American. But I regret to inform you you are incorrect" You are literally proving my point about you being hostile. For your information I asked that because you are trying to make me look like I'm racist, which I'm most definitely not.
tajshar2k says2015-08-18T05:13:23.8763474Z
So you are not African-American?
The_American_Sniper says2015-08-18T14:48:44.6108771Z
@BriantheLiberal You seem to think that black people are a bunch of rosy people who are have done absolutely nothing wrong, and the evil white majority is oppressing them. You talk about reality, but you fail to see far too many blacks are making bad choices for themselves, and screwing their own lives. Its the culture they are brought up in that screwing up their lives. Simply blaming white people for everything isn't going to solve the problem. There are successful black people, so why are those people successful, but not the others?
Renegader says2015-08-18T20:16:00.5097844Z
@Brian I read what you said. Implying that poverty somehow has a better effect of white people is absurd. They still cannot go to college or get decent jobs. Even if minorities are effected slightly more, I still think the divisive nature of racial AA is not worth it. I could say the same thing about you being dishonest in debates but I won't drop to your level, many others on this site have already witnessed it. You never answered whether a post-racial society is your goal, and if it is, how can you cherry pick when to move towards it? Thats right, you only care about racial issues when they suit your agenda.
briantheliberal says2015-08-20T23:36:15.5555887Z
"You seem to think that black people are a bunch of rosy people who are have done absolutely nothing wrong" - Wrong and dismissed. If your argument is based entirely on logical fallacies and faulty assumptions, it will be ignored.
briantheliberal says2015-08-20T23:38:19.1132590Z
"Implying that poverty somehow has a better effect of white people is absurd." - AGAIN with this ridiculous straw man arguments. I never said this. You, once again, took my words, distorted them into your own words, and argued against the distorted version you created. That is why you were dismissed.
briantheliberal says2015-08-20T23:46:23.0456481Z
Also Renegader, you are the last person who should accuse me of dishonesty, when you have been dishonest throughout this entire conversation. Your constant straw man, red herring tactics are present all over this comment section, so spare me the bs. Additionally, we DO NOT live in a post racial society. It doesn't matter how "equal" or "color-blind" the laws already established are, it is NOT equal under the surface and never has been. The fact that I am FOR Affirmative Action shows that I am aware of this, and you are not because you are blinded by your own privilege. It isn't until you feel white people are the victim in whatever situation that your opinion of something changes to accommodate your biased and misguided mentality. Being blind to injustice against anyone who isn't apart of the dominant majority benefits you because you are apart of that demographic.
The_American_Sniper says2015-08-20T23:48:13.0895157Z
I don't care if you dismiss it. If you expect whites to compensate for every misfortune blacks accounted, with their entire career go ahead. AA isn't going to fix everything. Black "who have made bad choices" should realize that they have the option to turn their lives around.
TBR says2015-08-20T23:49:27.9380001Z
@e_American_Sniper - Stop looking at it as some sort of payback. That is just not what is happening.
briantheliberal says2015-08-20T23:56:23.5782175Z
The_American_Sniper, Read what you said one more time, and realize how ridiculous you sound. Nobody is requiring anyone else to "compensate" for anything. It is about equal opportunity, which otherwise doesn't occur without Affirmative Action because the system is racially biased in favor of white men. And as I mentioned before, IT IS NOT ONLY BLACKS WHO FALL UNDER AFFIRMATIVE ACTION POLICIES. Everyone does, including white people. White women are the primary beneficiaries of AA more than any other demographic, which in turn benefits white men as well. The fact that you, and everyone else who who opposes AA, constantly singles out black people shows your racial bias. And lastly, it is not blacks "who have made bad choices" that are going to college, getting degrees, and pursuing jobs, but to you every black person is a bad person so it doesn't surprise me that you feel the need to constantly bring that up and use it as an excuse in your opposition.
tajshar2k says2015-08-21T00:56:20.3279119Z
@The_American_Sniper Chill bro.
tajshar2k says2015-08-21T00:57:29.6912868Z
@Brian Sorry about that , my brother felt like you were blaming everybody else for trouble some black people were having in society.
tajshar2k says2015-08-21T00:58:08.4893243Z
No, that was me. I closed it for school, but then i realized I might stay a bit longer. We still have 2 weeks left.
TBR says2015-08-21T00:58:33.6653705Z
@tajshar2k - Did you close you account the other day, or am I thinking of someone else?
Teaparty1 says2015-08-21T04:16:30.6479632Z
Brian, which system is "racially biased in favor of white men," and how do you know?
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T05:04:03.5761924Z
TeaParty1, Every system obviously. I know because of the evidence and the fact that it's constantly thrown in everyone's faces. White men have the advantage in every societal institution, including education, employment, the justice system, media representation, the business world, politics etc... I can go on. If you need further explanation I will kindly provide. The only people who tend to be oblivious to this obvious fact are those who benefit from it. *cough cough* (hint hint)
Renegader says2015-08-21T06:51:25.5521132Z
"Poverty affects different ethnic groups in different way, with minorities being the most disadvantaged and heavily affected" Direct quote. You claim that you "didn't say" that you said poverty has better effects on whites, but what could your last quote imply? It seems that way to me. Don't call someone out for a "strawman" attack to deflect from your failing arguments. Also, I don't want to end racial affirmative action because I feel like whites have been victimized, I want to end it because it would have a healing effect between both groups. Clearly you think it is a beneficial idea to cherry-pick when race is used as a discriminatory factor, and that will not create better race relations. I guess you wouldn't want that anyway, it doesn't suit your "privilege" witch hunt agenda.
Philocat says2015-08-21T07:32:35.1416849Z
But, Briantheliberal, do you have proof for all those claims?
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T07:36:06.0550369Z
Renegader, Lol how pathetic can you be... You CLEARLY twisted and distorted my words, as I mentioned before. You pulling a direct quote only PROVES the point I initially made about your pathetic straw man tactics. I didn't say anything about poverty having a sort of POSITIVE or BETTER effect of any particular race, as you previously claimed. Your ridiculous accusation of what I supposedly said clearly has an implied a positive connotation, which you did on purpose to make it seem like what I actually was actually something else when I clearly said poverty affects different groups in different ways with the poverty of black communities being more concentrated and heavily enforced as a result of societal and systemic marginalization, something that is not present in the white American population living in poverty. They aren't poor BECAUSE they are white. Their race is NOT a factor in their low income levels. They do not fact discrimination because of their race in areas of life that contribute to their poverty (like schooling and jobs). In other words, the poverty experienced in black communities is in many ways directly correlated to their race. AND it much more widespread, much more concentrated, and affects their communities on a much deeper level. This is what I actually said, and it is the truth. There are both recent and historical documentation, statistical data etc... To prove this. So yes, you did resort to straw man fallacy to argue against something I never said because in reality it was your fallacious arguments that were failing. And in regards to you assertion that getting rid of race-based AA "would have a healing effect between both groups" is absolute nonsense and you have no evidence of this either because it's not true when there is still systemic racial disparity, bias, and discrimination against minorities present in both education and employment, especially for black Americans. How is standing by reality and relying on facts "cherry-picking"? Oh right, every thing is an "agenda" when people disagree with you or the injustice that you benefit from because you're another entitled fool blinded by your own privilege. The very thought of people having more, rightfully deserved, opportunity after being held back, marginalized and disenfranchised for decades upsets you because something isn't about you for once and it threatens you. Get over it. You cannot always benefit from unequal power structures in society.
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T07:36:48.1441067Z
Philocat, which claims... You can actually, you know, be specific.
Philocat says2015-08-21T08:19:18.6356559Z
The claims that whites are given preferential treatment over blacks in education, business, employment, politics and so on.
tajshar2k says2015-08-21T13:29:02.0176802Z
Universities are more willing to give the spot to Asians than whites. It isn't always white people who benefit.
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T20:22:02.5185184Z
Philocat, Education and Employment - A white male convict is just as if not more likely to be hired by an employer than a black or Latino man with NO criminal record. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/nyregion/race-a-factor-in-job-offers-for-exconvicts.html - A white high school dropout is just as, if not more likely to get a job than a black college student or graduate. - http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/06/25/3452887/education-race-gap/ - There is still a gap in average salary for whites and non-whites, men and women. White men get 100% or more of their expected earnings for the same work, minorities and women do not. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882775.html - White students are 40% more likely than minority students to receive scholarships for private university institutions, and scholarships in general. - http://californiawatch.org/dailyreport/study-white-students-more-likely-win-scholarships-12525 - And despite only making up 31% of the U.S. population, white males make up the overwhelming majority or politicians, judges and law enforcement officers, among other things. And this is just a few examples of this in ONE particular aspect of society, education and employment.
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T20:25:09.8445192Z
"Universities are more willing to give the spot to Asians than whites. It isn't always white people who benefit." - Actually this is not true. Asians are judged on a much higher standard compared to whites when it comes to college admissions. Asians are expected to recieve higher SAT and ACT scores, higher GPA's etc... Whites are often admitted with average test scores, the same is not the case for Asians in America.
TBR says2015-08-21T20:25:42.0899259Z
The sad part is Brian, once you get into working life, you don't even need to rely on the statics. It is very apparent. Discrimination takes place everywhere, big and small companies.
mwedwards says2015-08-21T20:27:28.4509214Z
@TBR and Brian: Have either of you watched the video I presented yet?
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T20:28:15.7821111Z
TBR, I agree, and what's even more sad is that most people who are not affected negatively by this simply refuse to admit or acknowledge it. There is always an excuse for why this happens and it's always something racist that only perpetuates the stigma against those who carry the burden.
TBR says2015-08-21T20:31:01.2705709Z
@mwedwards - OK, I watched your video . What of it.
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T20:31:03.7639879Z
Mwedwards, no, but when you present at least one valid study or statistical data that proves the validity of the correlation you made between Affirmative Action and issues in education among black Americans I will happy to take a look at that.
TBR says2015-08-21T20:34:17.9410433Z
@briantheliberal - The video is just a black guy saying the same stuff he wants to say. Its the "get the black guy to say it" that I think was the important part
tajshar2k says2015-08-21T20:34:46.2058138Z
You do realize your point about judging a group of people based on their race falls into this? What happens if that Asian kid isn't smart? What if he gets scores that some disadvantaged races get? Due to affirmative action, they will probably get in, but he won't.
tajshar2k says2015-08-21T20:35:04.3487301Z
This is why I'm opposed to race-based affirmative action.
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T20:38:59.9102401Z
TBR, that is the typical conservative race baiting tactic. Get black people to repeat the same propaganda they believe to make people believe it. That is why they hate Obama, but love Ben Carson, because he is the token black guy who believes in the nonsense they do, and it helps to dispel the notion that they aren't racist.
mwedwards says2015-08-21T20:41:33.1538548Z
@TBR: No. It was not because he was black that I wanted you to watch it. I wanted you to watch it because he has credentials and supported the position I take. Don't write it off because he is black.
mwedwards says2015-08-21T20:43:26.0891071Z
@brian: Fine! I will get you something, so long as you do the same to support your position right after I send my source/sources to you. Sound good?
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T20:45:33.6567641Z
"You do realize your point about judging a group of people based on their race falls into this?" - Actually I do, because it is white people who run these institutions that make it the way it is. Because Asians represent so little of the population, but represent so much of those with or pursuing degrees in certain fields of study, they judge them to a higher standard than white people in the same position. However, it is not because white people are discriminated against in these fields, but because they aren't represented enough in them. The same is not the case for other racial groups who do actually face discrimination AND underrepresentation in these fields. There was actually a study done on this issue a long time ago. Whites who would otherwise be against Affirmative Action, suddenly favored it when they thought it would benefit them. I'll have to find it for you again so you can read it for yourself.
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T20:47:27.2410922Z
Mwedwards, I already provided the evidence for my side. I am waiting for you to present your own.
Teaparty1 says2015-08-21T20:50:46.0643667Z
"...And it helps to dispel the notion that they aren't racist."
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T20:53:43.2659026Z
Yup.
Teaparty1 says2015-08-21T20:54:20.9557442Z
"That is why they hate Obama, but love Ben Carson, because he is the token black guy." Now that is some messed up thinking. Actually conservatives hate Obama because he is destroying our country, and love Dr. Carson because he is a wise, caring individual, who wants to get our country on track.
mwedwards says2015-08-21T20:55:05.2756283Z
@brian: Those pieces evidence have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not affirmative action hurts black students. If I missed it I apologize, but as far as I can tell your evidence is not in the context of what I am asking.
Teaparty1 says2015-08-21T20:56:29.1573660Z
"Its the 'get the black guy to say it' that I think was the important part." The important part was the content and logic he presented. Do you not agree with something that he said?
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T21:00:53.8130625Z
TeaParty1, no conservatives love Ben Carson because he is a conservative black guy with certain credentials that allow him to seem as if he knows what he is talking about when, in reality, he doesn't. And also because he is black AND conservative, he perpetuates the same anti-black propaganda that white conservatives who otherwise never get away with. That allows other conservatives to take advantage of him to perpetuate the status quo that in reality only benefits people of the demographics with the most power and privilege in society.
Teaparty1 says2015-08-21T21:02:58.9414646Z
So you think there is some pretty sinister stuff going on here with black conservatives and white conservatives. Interesting.
Teaparty1 says2015-08-21T21:04:18.2991733Z
So you think there is some deeper, sinister stuff going on here with the relationship between black conservatives and white conservatives. Interesting.
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T21:09:23.3747289Z
TeaParty1, I don't think there is, I know there is... Those in charge of the Republican Party know this as well. What better way to get minorities to vote against their best interest than getting someone like them to pander to them. I cannot tell you how many times white conservatives have tried to pander to me and my skin color by bringing up examples of black and Latino conservatives, Ben Carson being one of them. Am I supposed to care that he is black when he clearly doesn't give a damn about black people? When he supports institutions that favor white people at the expense of minorities like myself? Absolutely not. I didn't think that way with Obama, I surely won't think that way with a conservative halfwit like Ben Carson who shouldn't even have a voice in politics to begin with.
triangle.128k says2015-08-21T21:10:16.6022701Z
The flame war rages on!
TBR says2015-08-21T21:13:54.2585136Z
@mwedwards - Where did he back any of his statements? He says the "lowering of the bar leads to higher dropout rates". OK, that has been said in this conversation, and is equally unproven.
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T21:17:37.4766962Z
TBR, I watched the video and I was about to say the same thing. He is just repeating the same claims that have been made in this conversation with NO evidence to support it. It's ridiculous.
TBR says2015-08-21T21:27:37.8630758Z
Hey Brian. I know how to put this argument to rest. Lets find a "credentialed" white guy who says AA is great. Think that would do it?
TBR says2015-08-21T21:35:34.7728019Z
Wait wait. I look this "creditionaled" guy up. He is a radio host, and conspiracy theorist. He is, wait for it, the "Prager" is Prager University. A nonaccredited on-line pseudo university. They take donations via Paypal. Got it.
TBR says2015-08-21T21:36:28.6555473Z
From the PragerU "university" [giggle] site. "Instant access to 5-minute videos by world-renowned thinkers. Free quizzes to test your knowledge. Track your individual performance. Get new videos in your email as they are released.
TBR says2015-08-21T21:37:20.7754814Z
They offer classes like "the most important question about abortion" and "was the civil war about slavery?"
TBR says2015-08-21T21:38:11.0779265Z
This is some fun stuff. The "was the civil war about slavery" class is a 5:50 video. All "classes" have this at the end "* Prager University is not an accredited academic institution and does not offer certifications or diplomas. But it is a place where you are free to learn.
Teaparty1 says2015-08-21T21:43:32.7017402Z
TBR I don't get the problem with PragerU. They don't claim to be an actual university, and are clear that they are not. University of Michigan also accepts Paypal donations, so what?
triangle.128k says2015-08-21T21:45:46.5619236Z
Prager University, hahahahaha.
TBR says2015-08-21T21:46:12.7856917Z
@Teaparty1 - Sush. I am working on my PragerU degree. This may take a half hour or so. An hour I may have a Phd.
Teaparty1 says2015-08-21T21:46:32.1129860Z
Lame.
triangle.128k says2015-08-21T21:49:01.6755118Z
Prager University is blatant far-right upper middle class propaganda.
triangle.128k says2015-08-21T21:51:10.3170844Z
This is coming from someone who's against affirmitive action. Please use a better source than Prager University.
Teaparty1 says2015-08-21T21:52:30.6015747Z
Triangle I dare you to find something false on their site.
NewLifeChristian says2015-08-21T22:02:39.4452164Z
@Teaparty1 - I'm not trying to be mean or anything to 'triangle.128k', but he likes to dismiss sources that he disagrees with as 'unreliable'.
Varrack says2015-08-21T22:06:20.5081246Z
My issue with PragerU is that they often don't source their claims. They may say this or that, but until I find evidence that what they're saying is true, their claims are bare assertions.
triangle.128k says2015-08-21T22:07:16.5029924Z
@NewLifeChristian Said the one that believes conservapedia is a reliable source.
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T22:11:06.4484664Z
Just out of curiosity, is Conservapedia serious or a satirical site?
triangle.128k says2015-08-21T22:11:46.9456446Z
@briantheliberal I think it probably is serious... NewLifeChristian used conservapedia as a source against me in a debate.
briantheliberal says2015-08-21T22:13:34.3374144Z
That is frightening. Using that as a source is worse than Wikipedia.
triangle.128k says2015-08-21T22:13:47.5305914Z
At least Wikipedia is unbiased.
Teaparty1 says2015-08-21T22:38:14.2919035Z
Varrack- I agree that they should cite sources or studies for their claims, but for some things, logic is enough.
Teaparty1 says2015-08-21T22:41:35.9743032Z
Its only logical that lowering standards for someone based on their race, hurts them in the long run
TBR says2015-08-22T00:09:45.4678919Z
@Teaparty1 - Its only logical that AA is beneficial. Want me to back that with some blatantly liberal source? Want me to register TBR-University.Org? Would that make it legit? That site is a joke, and calling "university" should be insulting to anyone.
NewLifeChristian says2015-08-22T00:22:39.8494648Z
Just out of curiosity, is MSNBC serious or a satirical site?
briantheliberal says2015-08-22T00:25:28.8765483Z
NewLifeChristian, neither - it's news media outlet.
TBR says2015-08-22T00:27:00.2060240Z
@NewLifeChristian - If you are commenting on the Conservapedia comment. That site is... Well, let me say, I too thought it was a joke too. That someone, anyone takes anything over there seriously is troubling. If you want to contrast with MSNBC, fine. I will do a debate on accuracy between MSNBC and Conservapedia any day.
TBR says2015-08-22T00:30:34.1705053Z
This Prager University is my new favorite. Sincere thanks mwedwards for turning me on this goldmine. This is something really special.
NewLifeChristian says2015-08-22T01:17:31.0618103Z
@briantheliberal - How about the Daily Kos? Is it a serious or a satirical site?
TBR says2015-08-22T01:21:53.5826305Z
@NewLifeChristian - Its a political blog! Look, seems you pass on the MSNBC vs. Conservapedia debate challenge, I would be happy to take Kos vs Conservapedia fact check debate.
TBR says2015-08-22T01:23:07.2917935Z
Don't blame everyone else because you don't know how to vet a resource.
Renegader says2015-08-22T07:06:23.0925709Z
@Brian "I didn't say anything about poverty having a sort of POSITIVE or BETTER effect of any particular race, as you previously claimed." Oh so you just meant that it was different, maybe they are just separate but equal forms of poverty (rolls eyes.) C'mon, you are not fooling anyone. How is the poverty in these concentrated areas "enforced?" It exists because of the endless cycle of incarcerations and the drug war that should be ended years ago. No one is forcing people into poverty, it is a terrible side effect of failed policies. The core of our disagreement is that you believe race is the primary reason for the poverty, while I believe it is a smaller factor that amplifies a bad situation. A healing effect would occur after economic AA is implemented because extreme forms of identity politics are divisive in nature, it would seem obvious to the common person that unity would increase. Lastly, your little rant about how you don't have an agenda is classic. You are a walking cliche and the largest partisan hack on this website. Sometimes I wonder if you are just copying and pasting from liberal parody blog. Don't tell me that you don't have a racial agenda because you are just lying to yourself. At least other people like TBR can have an honest discussion and try to understand opposing viewpoints. I am done here, enjoy wallowing in victim-hood.
mwedwards says2015-08-23T15:02:38.7375660Z
@TBR and Brian: THANK YOU FOR WATCHING IT! I feel happy now. TBR: I am glad you are enjoying all that Prager has to offer. ;) As for the topic at hand, I agree that he did say what I have been talking about in our conversation, the reason I use the video is because the man has better credentials than myself so I was hoping you may take his word a little more seriously and actually try and refute it. (he has a m.D. And is working on a ph.D. I am doing neither) So far the extent of your arguing has been that I should provide sources/better sources. You haven't actually attacked the logic yet. Regardless, I will be providing more sources for Brian's sake, so you may look at those if you desire. Brian: You haven't attacked the logic! The guy is an intelligent man so if he is saying it there is warrant to it. I will provide some more sources soon, so long as you do the same for your position, but I would really like for you or TBR to attack the logic behind my stance. You can talk about sources all day long, but in the end neither of you have provided sources to back up your stance that AA does not negatively impact black student's education.
TBR says2015-08-23T15:17:14.5115799Z
@mwedwards - The problem is, there is nothing to do but disprove your positive claim. Do you understand? It is you that is drawing a line between disparate datasets that I don't deny. The BOP is clearly on you, not me. I can't prove something that has no connection to begin with.
mwedwards says2015-08-23T16:57:04.8828525Z
@TBR *sigh* I do understand where you are coming from, but you are asking me to do something that is impossible. As far as I can tell AA is in place across the country almost completely. This means that I have nothing to compare a world with AA to. It is not like half the country implements AA and the other half doesn't. If that was the case, then I would be able to compare datasets, but since that can't happen I have to present logical arguments. Frankly I think you recognize this because you have not made attempts to use any data whatsoever to support your side either. Now, there are I think 8 states that have banned AA for colleges, however that was only last year, not nearly enough time to get good comparable data. What we need to be doing TBR is arguing about the logic behind our arguments. So far you have not countered mine, only asked for data you know I can't possibly give you, and have failed to provide any evidence to support yours. On top of that, I read through the comments and you have given almost 0 reasons why AA is good for black students is the long run. Anyways, I have an article that I am ready to present that supports my case, I am simply waiting for Brian to provide his source that supports his side. I want to have his evidence too when I give mine out.
TBR says2015-08-23T17:07:54.4835085Z
@mwedwards - So, your assertion is without meaning or proof. That is where we started. The claim is negated then.
TBR says2015-08-23T17:12:40.1291746Z
As for backing my claim, I have made none. I ask again, find one and I will back it.
TBR says2015-08-23T17:12:48.7872301Z
As for backing my claim, I have made none. I ask again, find one and I will back it.
mwedwards says2015-08-23T18:49:15.6755253Z
@TBR: Again you have failed to counter any of my arguments other than calling them baseless. They are logical; you have not refuted that. Like I said, you are asking me to do something I don't have the ability to do, so you are really making this unfair for me to try and argue. Your logic is that just because AA is everywhere it must be a good thing. That is an insupportable position as there are many trends outside the U.S. or possibly inside the U.S. that applies to the country or region, but is not necessarily right. As for your assertion, since you have decided to argue with me on the matter I assume you are taking the position that AA is a good thing for black students. You have not backed that up, so really you should not try to hold me to a higher standard than you.
mwedwards says2015-08-23T18:53:23.4207134Z
@TBR: By the way, you can only fully negate a position by articulating why the logic is false. If it is logical, however the circumstances prevent a person from fully being able to back it up, then it is a good rule of thumb to also attack the logic. Also, this situation is unique because you can't provide evidence that negates my claim either as far as datasets go. Because you can't use datasets to refute my claims, and I can't use datasets to support my claim, then you have to attack the logic. Otherwise you have done nothing.
TBR says2015-08-26T01:27:39.8057974Z
@mwedwards - If you want to do an AA debate, I will oblige

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