Is secession unpatriotic
Posted by: TBRI can't think of much that epitomize unpatriotic behavior like secession. Am I wrong?
Yes
No
72%
18 votes
28%
7 votes
Some possible definition of "patriotic" some of the NO votes are operating under would be nice.
@TheChristian - That says nothing about patriotism. Is it or isn't it?
Believe it or not, there are secessionists here who actually claim to be patriots, TBR. They claim themselves to be the true successors of Chinese cultural heritage and that the Mainland is devoid of it, They believe that gaining independence is the only way to preserve our culture, thus secession is an act of patriotism. Admittedly, these guys are great orators and have gained quite a few supporters. It makes me lose faith in humanity, lol.
Neglecting rights is not OK for a lot of reasons.
@TheChristian - Is it impossible for you to address the question?
He has a 30% win record, take a guess
One more comment on my vote. There is no need for a state to secede because the constitution also gives us many many ways to fix our government if we start losing rights.
@jrr8808 - Given any mechanism for secession still does not make it patriotic.
We are to fight against foreign and domestic enemies, this includes any person, group, or even our own government if it becomes a government of tyranny. We seceded from Great Britain and we can secede from our own country if it becomes tyrannous.
When did the US become "tyrannous?" For not allowing the southern states to function as their own country?
Let's be more current with the times now @ Triangle.
@Haroush - So close to a point. Good for you, however, the domestic enemies in this case would be secessionists, right?
It's we the people, not you the government.
@Haroush - That is meaningless in this context. Secessionists would be domestic enemies. The patriotic thing to do would be to fight to preserve the union.
Looking at things through the government's eyes secessionist may look like domestic enemies, but there would be those who see it this way and those who understand these peoples' right to do what they are doing.
@Haroush - First, we are talking about patriotism right now, not rights. I am happy to go down the "rights" route, it's easier for me, but the subject is patriotism. Patriotism is not about how the government views a situation, but how the people view the government (country) - "patriotism is a noun that means love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it. ". Any way an individual looks at that, secession would be unpatriotic. It just makes no sense otherwise.
TBR how is it not patriotic? When I think of secession I see a group of people standing up for our country and the original beliefs and values it is founded on. That is in fact patriotic...
Patriotism means love of country. So trying to secede from that country would be unpatriotic towards that country. As Theunknown pointed out, secession isn't necessarily right or wrong, and patriotism isn't always a good thing. Patriotism to North Korea is not recommendable.
However, in some cases a person is patriotic towards an idea of a country. If the country that actually exists doesn't live up to that idea, then seceding to form a nation that better lives up to the idea may be considered patriotic. It's patriotism towards the idea but not the current reality.
Well, I guess their could be a form of patriotism in secession. In the American civil war, many of the individuals who fought for the South were very patriotic toward their own state, but not the federal government.
Triangle for the same reason if the federal government tried to fight Colorado on legislation to legalize marijuana.. That would be violating state rights and be considered tyranny.
Slavery is wrong, but is the reason of secession in the 1800s. The same correlates to Colorado today.
For instance, America was founded upon the principle of freedom. If the U.S. Government became authoritarian and tyrannical, then there would be nothing unpatriotic about 15 states breaking apart to form a nation which better reflected the principles of freedom.
Patriotism is not a definition to me. Its what I feel is right and wrong and the love I have for my country to stand up and make a change for what I believe in.
It may be noble, but still not fit with patriotism. Look another way. A minority of individuals feeling patriotic in succeeding because of perceived tyrant would nonetheless be wishing to organize against the very country they presume to love.
Well then, what is your country then? The USA? Texas?
The country that allows you and I to argue over whats patriotic or not...
The country we share? The united one? Not that splinter you just happen to live in, right?
Back before the civil war, we were not a united nation. We were a collection of relatively independent nations that just worked together. People thought of themselves as New Yorkers or Virginians, not Americans. However modern day America is much more unified. We have developed a national identity and greater preference for the federal government than the states. Now we are just Americans. This increase of national identity alone greatly decreases the likelihood that any state will try to secede again, regardless of peoples view on tyranny and whatever else you think is wrong with the government.
I agree, Abraham Lincoln did help unite the union more. We probably wouldn't exist as a superpower today if we weren't as unified.
Superpower, no. We may still have been a powerful nation, but something more along the lines of the EU.
Who would be Germany?
The main problem with the EU is how fragmented the countries are. The EU could be a superpower if they were more unified.
Texas or California. Their the two wealthiest and most powerful.
*they're
Centralization and Unification are not necessarily a good thing. Plenty of large would be better off giving more power to smaller government units and becoming Confederations with only foreign policy and military under control of national govevernment.
Confederations dont stand the test of time. They are only ever effective when they have a common goal or enemy uniting all the participants together. Once that common enemy is gone, they begin fighting amongst themselves until the confederacy turns into a stronger central based government (Articles of Confederation to Constitution, end result of the civil war, etc.) or falls apart (what would have happened if the south won the civil war).
Yeah, just look at the EU, they're starting to fail because of how fragmented and seperated the countries are.
Individualized states is much better than federalized states.
When states have more rights, there is more liberty, when the government has more rights than the states, there is less liberty.
Except some states are too fucking retarded to let the make their own decisions.
@Haroush As we said earlier, confederations are not an effective way of running a nation. The US would never be as wealthy, powerful, or as stable as it is if we didn't have a strong central government.
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Yes, because by attempting to be patriotic you are doing the exact opposite of what a true patriot should do, and that is work to perserve the union and change what you don't like peacefully.
Exactly, TBR. Secession is the epitome of unpatriotic behaviour...
It is necessarily unpatriotic, that does not mean that it is always wrong or is always right.
It is 100% unpatriotic. It's committing an act of treason and betrayal.
Were the colonists (or americans) patriotic to Great Britain?
Well, ummmmm......... Yeah. Its not very patriotic toward your country if you want to leave it.
By definition, yes. But if you want to start a new country, depending on the situation it could be for the better.
Obviously; it is the polar opposite of patriotism. Patriotism is an extreme love for one's country, but succession is extreme hate for one's country to the point of waging a war against them to make your own country. It could be patriotic to a previous state of the country/government, but it obviously not patriotic to the actual government of the time.
Patriotism, by definition, is being a proud member of a country and wanting to fight to preserve it. Secession is the complete opposite. You are clearly not a patriot if you want to no longer be part of the country you are in. As someone else pointed out, it would be like trying to say the founding fathers were patriotic British citizens while fighting a war against Britain. Breaking away, whether they have the right to or not, is treason against the union that the founding fathers and revolutionary patriots fought and died to create. THAT is NOT patriotism.
Individuals may feel neglected in rights
The whole constitution is about the rights of citizens and to protect ourselves from tyranny. There are parts of the constitution that allow us to stand up to big government There is no clause in the Constitution that specifically allows for secession, but it stands to reason that if states can be voluntarily admitted into the union there must be a way for them to voluntarily leave. In Texas v. White the majority opinion stated "The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States." so yes a state can