Minimum Wage: Help or Hurt

Posted by: Teaparty1

Will raising the federal minimum wage to at least $10.10, help or hurt the low and middle class in the US?

  • Help

  • Hurt

55% 38 votes
45% 31 votes
  • The only ones who wouldn't benefit are upper class.

  • Definitely helpful, but keep it at a minimum (Efficient social programs are a better way of dealing with poverty as opposed to raising the minimum wage.)

  • If kept at a reasonable amount, yes.

    Posted by: Harper
  • I wish their was a both option, because its not simply a "good" or "bad" idea. Raising it will have the benefit of getting some of the poorest groups as far above the poverty line as possible, but it also has the added effect of increasing prices and the cost of living. This could bring some of the middle class groups who already get paid more than $10 closer to the poverty line, not away from it. The upper class is relatively unaffected.

  • It will help more than it harms. Increasing minimum wage within reasonable boundaries will not significantly impact the costs of goods. Increasing or decreasing the minimum wage will not have significant impacts as far as reducing or increasing unemployment rate.

  • I think raising the minimum wage will help. Most of the people in jobs that are typically said to be where a teenager should work has adults working there. Many of them also trying to support a family. So how is an adult with a family supposed to pay bills, and then buy whatever luxuries they want with the little they have at $7.25 with like 30-40 hours a week. They can't. Most teenagers don't have to worry about bills, most of them are just trying to get some extra cash for the luxuries they want whenever they want them. I think if we can't raise minimum wage, it should at least be dependent on someones financial position.

  • The presence of an equilibrium wage determined by the market is a myth. Corporations are highly organized units and are well suited to collective bargaining while labor is disparate and disorganized and their adversarial relations with one another in the job market cripples their ability to collectively bargain effectively. Corporations are thus able to bargain for a wage lower than the actual value of the labor provided. This issue is further complicated by the fact that this wage paid will not be enough to meet basic needs, thus necessitating that taxpayers pick up the bill through welfare programs that corporations were unwilling to pay themselves. It is additionally helpful to the economy for the poorest members to receive more compensation for their labor. Those who earn the least have a high marginal propensity to consume every additional dollar earned, thus increasing total aggregate demand when their wages increase. The increase in the price of labor will cause prices to increase however the increase in demand caused by the wage increase will offset this price hike, creating a net positive for the economy.

  • If we removed minimum wage, we'd be forced to re-create the poverty line. We'd also be promoting the potential growth of free trade zones as well as an influx of immigration due to the possibility of work in a safer country. We would basically be outsourcing our own country.

  • A $101.10 minimum wage is a reasonable comprise. It brings the current minimum wage out of poverty by at least $2,000 for a single family. Now two people working at that level with one child could afford better education, food, health care and transportation if they are disciplined enough to budget accordingly. I am all for this as opposed to a $15.00 minimum wage. Oh, by the way , how is Seattle faring?

    Posted by: GHLII
  • Most Adults work minimum wage already so increasing it would help everyone. Except maybe business owners who want extra profit

  • I believe that people can make choices for themselves. If two adults would like to consent to a trade of labor for money then they should be allowed to do so. This would also cause more unemployment due to a basic principle in economics, if the price of a good or service increases then the demand for it decreases.

  • Hey look, profitability's down. Let's reduce expenditures. Hey look, some employees who could have their jobs added to someone else's job description. PINK SLIP'D! It would increase the workload of the people who stay and decrease the total number of jobs.

  • For the same reason that there should not be a standard wage (i.e. every job pays exactly the same wage/salary) there should not be a minimum wage. Ideas like minimum wages and maximum wages are draconian, egalitarian, totalitarian, and ultimately, communist. By closing the gap between high wages and low wages, we close the possibility of competition and progress in the market.

  • We already have 10% unemployment and 19% underemployment rate in America. We are fighting to keep our jobs here and not in India and southeast Asia. Do you really think making companies pay more for workers will help that?

  • Simple econ 101 raise the price and demand goes down. That is why Europe has a permanent high unemployment rate. Want full employment the market must set the price. What % of min. wage workers are over 24 yrs old? Is this a temp job, part time a stepping stone job?

  • Raising the minimum wage will only hurt everyone by increasing the prices on goods and services making things more expensive for everyone including the minimum wage worker because even though they will get a raise in the the same products or services they buy will be more expensive. In other words, it will do no good except make life harder for consumers of the American economy.

  • yaa! sure daily wage will hurt because, if a man just depending on daily wage will not have an idea to earn more and he will also not develop in his carrier and he will face a great crysis

    Posted by: jawa
  • Hurt is a strong way to put it, but why are people so obsessed with punishing business owners. THERE IS NO JOB WITHOUT THE BUSINESS. Be thankful a business is performing well enough to offer jobs. And everyone forgets it is a contract between two parties. If the wage is too low, no one will take the job. But 9/10, someone WILL take the job because they want to work. Raising the minimum wage bars all these people from working who would be willing to take a job at $8/hr, but no longer can find a job because the minimum wage has removed that job from the market. The free market always succeeds in working this problem out. If you have a problem with minimum wage, then start your own damn business and pay people more. Don't orchestrate how someone else runs their business, or how they make deals with other private parties. The market decides their value. If the job doesn't offer reasonable pay, no one will take it and the company changes its polices or is forced to adapt.

  • Even with a minimum wage law in place, a worker is at risk of receiving $0 (unemployment). A minimum wage law guarantees nothing. In fact, all the law will do is make it illegal to work for low wages. When it's illegal to work for low wages, the low wage workers will be divided into two groups A) some of the more talented and fortunate low wage workers will get jobs at a higher wage and B) the less talented and less fortunate workers will be unemployed. Don't outlaw low wage work. The people it hurts the most are the poorest people, with the least marketable skills.

  • Hurts because this is just another way of the government to regulate a business. Minimum wage decreases the amount of jobs in a business and you should work for the value of a product, not for how much the government wants.

  • By increasing the minimum wage, the only thing that is accomplished is the express train to no more jobs; at the moment, it is cheaper to have workers at minimum wage than it is to automate, but as soon as you hike up the wage, companies will automate in a heartbeat. Do you know what that means? More of our tax dollars going to support those who could have been working but lost the chance to on account of their greed.

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o0jeannie0o says2015-07-10T15:04:35.4635845-05:00
Minimum wage is that low in the US? Yea you should raise it... Albetas is going to $15 soon
Teaparty1 says2015-07-10T15:07:38.4619190-05:00
I think it is currently $7.25.
Donderpants says2015-07-10T15:13:24.8023706-05:00
NZ is $14.25 per hour. To be fair in US money that's $9.58.....
UtherPenguin says2015-07-10T16:28:08.3340491-05:00
@o0jeannie0o Alberta's minimum wage is only at 10$ though.
o0jeannie0o says2015-07-10T16:42:27.6917988-05:00
I repete going to be $15 soon... As in within a few years... It will be 11 by october
UtherPenguin says2015-07-10T17:37:48.1775092-05:00
@o0jeanie0o Really 0_o.
tajshar2k says2015-07-11T13:36:02.9365036-05:00
15 is wayy to high. 10 or 11 is good.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-11T16:50:18.0411628-05:00
Additional to my vote comments does a Federal Minimum Wage account for differing cost of living? No it doesn't, this is a HUGE point to account for. Finally, this does NOT increase the pay for skilled positions in which the workers spent countless hours training and in school. Let's say McDonalds employees microwaving frozen patties and filling soda cups makes $7.00 an hour. Contrarily, a software developer coding the website we are on right now makes $28.00 an hour. This means the software developer, through hard work, makes 4x as much as the soda cup filler; this seems fair right? Well, let's bump the minimum wage up to $10.00 an hour. Does this mean the Federal Government will also bump the software developer's wage to $40 an hour to keep the fair separation there? No. The entire reason for this raise in minimum wage by the Federal Government is NOT to help people making minimum wage to better themselves; if it were, we would be discussing how to get those minimum wage workers into school to better themselves, not just throwing cash at them. The reason this is a discussion is because Democrats think having a soda cup filler making the same as a software developer is "fair". As long as the comparison does NOT include government and keeps those government officials in the upper tier of wealth without us taking notice of it, they are happy.
tajshar2k says2015-07-11T20:21:56.7193222-05:00
Why do conservatives always being up the fast food guy?? Its not the only job out there. What about the guy who carries large loads for 8 jobs, or is doing something extremely labor extensive. He definitely is working harder than some guys who type some random crap on the keyboard, and do you really think its fair for him to get paid on 7.25/hour?
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-11T22:13:09.6194681-05:00
@tajshar2k I've worked day labor which is what you are talking about. Yes, they do deserve more; getting up at 1:30 AM, walking to the shop and standing outside from 2:30 AM til 5:30 AM when the guys managing the shop finally get out of bed and open the shop up for the day, then waiting in the smelly lobby until 8 AM when the jobs start getting handed out, some of us waiting there until noon or later just to find out there is not enough work for everyone. Then the ones that do get jobs end up staying out until 7 or 8 PM, get dropped off at the shop, walk home to your motel room and pay your $30 to stay another night, get a shower and sleep by 11 PM, get up 1:30 AM and do it all over again. I get it. However, physical workload is not a determination of pay or worth. If it were, those day laborers getting paid to dig holes in the middle of the desert who can't tell you what 5x5 is would be worth more than those guys "typing some random crap on the keyboard" all day that perform more mathematical, physics, and geometric equations in an hour than you do in a year. This is why I went to school to get my high school diploma in my 20's then went to multiple trade schools, tech schools, and colleges....To better myself and have a higher worth than working day labor the rest of my life.
Haroush says2015-07-11T23:10:10.6801412-05:00
@MSPD, First off, I'll take your word as true about your work ethic and dedication. At the same time, you must understand temporary agencies are called that for a reason. It pocket money until you prove yourself to a company that they should buy your contract out from the TA. If TA's were forced to pay 15 dollars a hour they would make no profit because the company they are contracting with wouldn't want to pay more than that minimum wage. Furthermore, I am making less than 15 a hour and guess what? I am making it by fine paying a car payment, phone bill, rent, other amenities, and food. The minimum wage was named that for a reason. That reason is because it was meant for those laborers without any special occupational skills. Besides, there is unions, there is trade programs, and government programs out there to help people like you through these tough financial situations in your life. The minimum wage wasn't created for people to live comfortably. If you live in America.. Learn this phrase, freedom isn't free.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-12T00:12:26.3535437-05:00
@Haroush I think you failed to read and comprehend my comments. I am on the same side as you. My point was that those day laborers, NOT TEMP AGENCIES, there is a difference, should be paid a bit better for what they go through. TA work you put your name in and walk away, over the next weeks and months they call you and offer you work with a single company which you return to each day as a normal employee; day laborers have a new job with a new company every day and have to fight for a job every day. You're not guaranteed work any day even if you had a job yesterday. Contracts for buying those workers are ridiculously high. Plus, the labor companies that purchase day laborers are not the guys looking for extra help for more than a day or two. It's cheap labor.
Haroush says2015-07-12T06:56:03.4988123-05:00
@MSPD, Sorry about that, I typed an extra comment but it apparently didn't go through saying forgive me for my typos and "you" was one of them. Anyways, day laborers sounds awfully close to what a temp worker is. Maybe you could go into further detail about it because I never heard of something like that but similar to temporary work.
Haroush says2015-07-12T07:03:52.2190436-05:00
Really the truth is our global economy thrives off of slavery so we should either keep the minimum wage where it is at or lower it to keep competing in the global economy.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-12T08:33:56.9837194-05:00
@Haroush Our global economy does not thrive off of slave labor. The global economy thrives off of debt which is why countries like Greece are getting smashed in the EU, members of the EU are now starting to push to separate the EU and even started speaking out about the divide being between North and South as opposed to the Berlin Wall era East vs West, please review the recent talks regarding Greece and its debt. For day labor, just look up the definition: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/day%20laborer or just think about those guys standing in front of Home Depot or on the corner in the stereotypical Illegal Mexican Immigrant cartoons; they legalized that action by creating a business model around it.
tajshar2k says2015-07-12T19:54:24.3316376-05:00
@MSPD I understand what your saying. Those guys don't deserve to be paid 60k a year, but the least we can do is make the minimum wage a bit higher to help them out financially. Also, we need to value all jobs equally. The job of the garbage man probably isn't as prestigious as a doctor, but we should understand that without them, our lives would be alot harder.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-12T20:26:09.2471241-05:00
Now you get into value of education argument. Should the doctor or software developer requiring years of secondary school, additional schooling, training, certs, licenses, etc. including ongoing education throughout their careers; not to mention the liability they take on be compensated at a higher rate than the individual heaving trash bags who never needed or needs any capitol to be spent on education, licenses, certs, etc? The average doctor finally gets into practice with about $250,000 in school debt; interest taken into account it's just below $500,000 in debt they have to pay back. Would it be fair to call them equal?
brad21 says2015-07-13T00:41:52.0920576-05:00
Raising the minimum wage is not main way to tackle the poverty issue. The real issue is having a place to live in the 1st place to start with. Putting it at 10 dollars an hour sounds good work 40 hrs that would be 400 dollars. I vote yes to put it at 10 dollars per hour. Again this is dodging the real issue. Housing security. Obtaining a job only make since if a person has a long term place to live in such as an apartment or house to live in. Business'es do not control the rent or mortgage prices. We need free basic apartments low income people. Saying affordable housing what does this mean. What the average person is wanting is a basic standard of living in which to work from. Minimum wage the idea behind it is to pay all beginners workers to start with basic income. But basic income makes since if you have a place to live in the first place. The issue is having access to a residential place to live such as an apartment or a house. The real goal housing stability for all american's. Homeless people can t find or hold down a job. In order to get a job in america one will need a contact number, mailing address, state id card, transportation to and from work. Since the banks and the government print money any way. All paper money is printed. Digital money is inside the all electronic computers. Everyone should know the banks and the government work together. All american are using some form of government help. The entire private sector business and corporations are being helped by the government. Laws and regulations help to keep the currency the paper money and digital money stable sized. The public sector is not dependent on the private sector tax payers-workers. 90& of the population has went to public schools as a child. 85% of adults in america have a high school diploma or GED. 15% of american s have a collage degree. 25% of american s have a vocational skill trade. Adult job skill education is part of the poverty issue. Also some people are lazy and make bad personal choice that lead to them being poor. Most adults in america do help others out. 80% of college students live with parents. 35% of all young adults live with parents or grand parents. 80% of adults are working full time jobs. 75% percent of adults have children. 50% of adults are married couples. The issue of poor people is 50% their fault. Choosing to have kids at a young age is stupid. Teenagers should focus on graduating school. 18-24 year old's should focus on finding a full time job or go to college or vocational school. 20% of adults in america do not have a job at all. 50% of all poor people brought the poverty on them self s. Using drugs getting drunk a lot, having kids out of wedlock is the biggest reason why most single parents stay poor. 25% of adults have no kids. 50% of adults are married with children. This means 25% of adults have children and is not married. Having sex before getting married is most often a bad idea. Teen pregnancies is never good. Single parent hood is not wrong per say it just not a smart decision. Some young women are raped or taken advantage of this is true. 25% don't have kids. Most working married couple 90% of the time have the money to pay their bills and raise their kids. The issue of poverty first starts with personal responsibility. 25% of children in america live in poverty. Well this is because their parents choose to have sex long before ever finding a job. Here is an idea america. If you know you cant support your self then why have sex. Having sex causes women to become pregnant. 75% of american s are doing the right thing. All of america's problems comes from 25% of adults not taking personal responsibility for them self's. For those of you that cannot find a job ask your self why. Did you drop out of school high school. Do you have a criminal record. Are you lazy. Some poor people have no problem finding some one to help them out. Ladies let me tell you something, if you have a 3 or more kids and you is poor that is your fault. It is 2015 all children in america receive a basic education up to 12th grade if you dropped out that is on you. Breaking the law by using drugs, stealing violence is not helping you. 20% of adults is poor in america. Of that 50% of the poor is poor because of their wrongful bad decisions. This why i believe the government should help the working poor first. If your disabled then they should help you. Forcing employers to pay you more is not going to reduce poverty at all. The government should hire construction companies to build apartment units for working Americans. The middle-class is helping their adult kids pay for college. Government is part of the economy already. Working people back up the money supply. Job creation is needed more in this nation. The banks and the real estate companies need regulated. Gas food cloths is not expensive. The government could let more people in the military. The government is not a drain on the private market. Both public and private market need workers. Public market place need working people. 10% of the adults will be lazy no matter what. Again the job market is a secondary is issue. The 1st issue is having a free place to live for working people. Paper money is a renewable and is made by the government and the banks. Loans and grants come from the banks and the governments.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-13T02:05:54.8319806-05:00
OK, first off we already have free housing. It's called Section 8 housing. Second, businesses DO control housing prices and mortgages...They are called real estate and banking businesses as well as stock prices economic outlook, GDP, among MANY others. Third, like you said minimum wage is for new workers, not for the lazy people or the ones too worried about looking cool in school instead of studying and going to college to better themselves. I am so tired of reading all these posts from what seem like preteens spouting off about how unfair the world is, the world isn't fair, it isn't and will NEVER be. If you want equality go to China and write back to us in a year, let us know how socialism and communism work for you. Ummmm the public sector is 100% dependent on the private sector...It's called GDP (Gross Domestic Product) study it. Here's the real deal; if you want government assistance for these 40% of Americans not paying taxes and you just want to throw dollar bills at every problem then go for it, but the next time you see that dirty smelly man on the corner you better start throwing cash at him. You want my hard earned tax dollars then you have the balls to come knock on my door and ask me to my face. You want your neighbor's money, go knock on their door and tell them you're too poor and you need their money. Why? Because that's where all your government cash and hand outs are coming from. It's not Houdini magic, the money doesn't just poof appear, it comes from your neighbors who go out working hard every day and pay their taxes for you to sit around making excuses blaming everyone else.
Haroush says2015-07-13T18:45:54.1718573-05:00
MSPD, Our economy doesn't thrive off of slavery? Really? Think about all of those sweat shops we benefit from.. What a joke. Come on now,
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-15T17:07:57.9745617-05:00
@Haroush We do NOT profit from slavery. Slavery is defined as services provided against a person's will without compensation with the purpose of maximizing company profits. So, let's do this.....Those workers in Asian "sweatshops" are there under their own freewill (except in the case of socialist and communist societies based on roles being chosen for you; which we are unable to control), those same workers are also paid a wage for services rendered based on regional cost of living; this wage may be taken by their government if they live in a socialist or communist nation, but again, we cannot control this and their government provides said citizens with housing, food, healthcare and water deemed appropriate by their government for sustaining of life. These wages may also be calculated out to say $0.25 an hour in comparison to the $25.00 an hour an American would make for the same job, however, using this as an argument for slavery completely ignores regional cost of living, cultural norms, national structure, etc. Think about this: I can go to Manhattan and get a tech support position paying $22.00 an hour, I can then move to Harlingen, TX and be hired by the same company performing the same duties with the same title and be paid $10.00 an hour. Is this slavery? No, it's because Manhattan has a MUCH higher cost of living at 120.4% above the national average as opposed to Harlingen, TX which boasts a cost of living of 18.4% BELOW the national average. Economics 101 my friend learn, live, love it; it's the way the ENTIRE UNIVERSE works, not just Earth. Some comets are bigger and denser than others, some celestial bodies exude more gravity than other, and black holes beat EVERYTHING....Haves and have nots.......Equality exists nowhere in the known universe. As much as you may hate it, you should learn to accept and tolerate it because there is no escaping it.
Varrack says2015-07-16T09:22:24.2852347-05:00
This poll is confusing - the title asks whether the MW is helpful but the description asks about raising it, which ended in people voting for both questions. So the results are kind of skewed.
Teaparty1 says2015-07-16T11:52:04.1692072-05:00
You're right, I should have made the title, "Raising The Minimum Wage: Help or Hurt"
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-16T13:29:17.2049126-05:00
I do see where it could be confusing, however, in your favor, your structure is actually proper. You give a basic overview of the main subject in the header then a detailed description in the descriptor section. That's actually pretty impressive structure to be honest my friend.
Teaparty1 says2015-07-16T15:46:23.5559246-05:00
Thanks. Also, I think anyone who says that minimum wage helps in general, is going to say yes to raising it. If someone says that in general minimum wage hurts, they'll be saying no to raising it. So rephrasing the title wouldn't have affected the results in this poll.
Haroush says2015-07-17T12:45:10.7337357-05:00
Okay, so those black slaves that were given land for all of their hard work wasn't compensation? Given someone a place to eat and sleep isn't compensation? Besides slavery doesn't have to be against someone's will.. Slavery can be considered as something being done willingly as well. Can someone enslave their self? Yes. And we can control what China does by not doing business with them. We don't have to. But we do. America chose to indulge with the global market system. This being said decisions are decisions and can be made. No one has to do anything. Slavery doesn't have to be against someone's will. Slavery is happening today by forcing people to work in order to earn money to survive. Slavery is needed naturally by societies all over the world in order to keep the cost of products down and you know damn well you benefit from it.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-17T13:39:50.8986589-05:00
@Haroush -- Okay, so those black slaves that were given land for all of their hard work wasn't compensation? Given someone a place to eat and sleep isn't compensation? HUH? What are you talking about? You claimed America’s economy thrives on slavery citing the “sweatshops”. I provided factual evidence that “sweatshops” in question are not slavery, so now you bring up American slavery? How is our economy thriving right now because of slavery that ended 152 years ago? Did you invent time travel? Did you find a wormhole no one else is aware of? I smell a Nobel Prize in your future. Besides slavery doesn't have to be against someone's will.. Slavery can be considered as something being done willingly as well. Can someone enslave their self? Yes. No you can’t enslave yourself. What are you puffing on over there? Can I get some? You are correct, slavery does NOT have to be against a person’s will and a person can enter into slavery willingly; however, you are missing the IMPORTANT half of that situation. Willingly entering into slavery is not about a person strolling down to the farm and saying “I have nothing better to do for the next 10 years. Slave me up Scotty!” Willingly entering into slavery is majority wise due a debt that the person is unable to pay off. This individual is given choices to end their debt; usually the choice was to either go to prison and serve term equivalent to the debt you owe (just like the option we give still today to people not paying child support or stacking up traffic tickets) or willingly submit yourself to slavery, performing daily duties until your debt is paid off. Since these types of slaves were treated as members of the house, served inside the house performing light duty such as butler or maid, slept in the house, ate the same food as the owner, wore the same clothing as the owner, etc. etc.In addition to having a MUCH shorter term of service as compared to prison; this was the much more widely chosen option. And we can control what China does by not doing business with them. We don't have to. But we do. China is a MASSIVE part of the world economy. In fact, they are the largest supplier of exports in the world. Additionally, they currently hold the second largest quantity of America’s debt in the world; recently being passed by Japan. So YEAH!! Let’s go ahead and exile China so their already paper thin false economy tanks overnight, then they demand repayment of our debts which is literally impossible, so then the U.S. would have to file Bankruptcy or just flat out deny the requests, then China gets ticked off because we just smashed their entire existence to pieces. Similarly, because we are the 2nd largest importer in the world, of which 19% comes directly from China (not to mention the Chinese parts installed in products and imported under the flag of a different nation) our economy would tank overnight, our international credit rating would plummet which means our interest rates would skyrocket, etc. etc. And suddenly you have WWIII as the entire global economy shatters and our entire way of life would be gone literally overnight. America chose to indulge with the global market system. As opposed to staying out of the global economy? Yeah sure! Then we would be another third world nation. This being said decisions are decisions and can be made. No one has to do anything. Yes, I’m glad you understand that decisions are in fact decisions; quite the find. I smell a second Nobel Prize in your future. Slavery is happening today by forcing people to work in order to earn money to survive. Slavery is needed naturally by societies all over the world in order to keep the cost of products down and you know damn well you benefit from it Is someone forcing you to go to work every day? Is somebody forcing you to live in a place run off of a currency system? Do you not have the ability to leave this nation and become a citizen of another nation? Is someone denying you the ability to go live in an alley or storm drain like a homeless man? Is someone denying you the ability to walk out into the forest and take after Grizzly Adams? There’s a number of options I just came up with in about 15 seconds.
DjJourdan says2015-07-17T15:31:46.8596121-05:00
I don't think it is any of my business what other two free members of our society agree upon in their personal trade deal. Generally people get paid what they are worth. Sometimes a bit less and sometimes a bit more but it will all even out in the end.
Haroush says2015-07-19T08:06:53.2940824-05:00
Besides it was the north that paid their black soldiers less than their white soldiers. Not only that, the Confederate black soldiers got paid the same as their white brothers in arms.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-19T08:17:59.1708577-05:00
@Haroush The South paid ALL of their soldiers more because they had the finances to do so due to the money gained from employing slave labor as opposed to paying workers in the cotton and tobacco industries. The South was economic drive shaft of the nation. If you are going to give facts, give the ENTIRE SET of facts, not just the ones that work in your favor.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-19T08:21:02.6904575-05:00
@Haroush In fact, most soldiers were informed in the Union that they may not EVER be paid, they may be volunteers throughout the war as all finances needed to be directed to the war effort. The Union soldiers agreed as they believed in the cause. To me, it's pretty telling that the South felt forced to compensate their soldiers so highly in order to persuade them not to disband yet the Union couldn't afford to pay their soldiers and they held the front lines even without pay.
Haroush says2015-07-19T08:21:57.9049197-05:00
Lol, you are just pissed off that it is true (what I said). And it wasn't because of slave labor. It was because the leaders of the south were wealthy before slavery kicked into high gear. Besides if the North wanted to they could have printed out extra money for those black people and you know damn right well they could have.
Haroush says2015-07-19T08:23:37.8736486-05:00
Even today the South is better than the north economically. And it is because the north sucks at economics. You know why? It is because of their liberal policies.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-19T08:37:55.6326146-05:00
@Haroush /FacePalm You really believe the Union could have just "Printed more money"? Where do you think wealth to print money comes from? It's not as easy as throwing paper into a printer and throwing some letters on it. That's one of the reasons the U.S. is in such crazy debt, the Fed kept printing money and pumping it into the economy with the economy to back it up. If you artificially create wealth by printing money without the gold to back it up it lowers the value of your currency. Also, the reason the confederacy had all those wealthy guys was because 1) cotton and tobacco grow in the south so they had to go south to start their business & 2) The Union told them they couldn't have slave labor so again, they had to go south to get free labor. This is also the reason slavery had not taken off yet...Because the Union denied the ability to use slave labor. Once they went south and setup shop, they were able to hit slavery in full gear. As for the South being better economically, yes liberals are money stupid. However, the tale of the tape tells a different story than you portray. Here is the list of states by economy 2015: http://www.businessinsider.com/state-economy-rankings-q1-2015-2015-3?op=1 And Texas is only #1 cuz of the oil fields.
Haroush says2015-07-19T08:47:11.2392980-05:00
Oh trust me Lincoln and his buddies were wealthy enough to do so. Let's not fool ourselves here. Also, what North relies off of today is an artificial economy. So, yes in some states of the north can seem to be doing better economically, but any economy that doesn't rely off of Nature mainly is weak. It is as simple as that.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-19T09:00:49.2356544-05:00
@Haroush OK, the President, born in a log cabin, owning a single-family home with a net worth of under $1 million dollars could afford to keep afloat the war effort which cost the Union about $3.5 million a DAY. Good thinking buddy, where did you learn math? Why is the north a false economy? Give examples please.
Haroush says2015-07-19T09:17:27.3850398-05:00
Oh come on now. Abraham Lincoln was wealthier than what you make it out to be. And what I mean by a false economy is an economy that relies off of taxes meant for other areas of the economy to make up for losses in another. That is called gambling. Also, when you rely off of technology to make yourself more wealthy, you are relying off of an economy built on sand. Meaning if there ever was any kind of cataclysmic event or big disaster (whether natural or created by human error), what ever economies relied off of technology or even electricity would not survive because technology is a dead concept. It is a dead concept because only ideas that intertwine with nature as the prominent factor can survive even when there is any kind of scenario which obliterates technology as we know it. Again, it doesn't have to be a natural disaster either. Though nature rules over all things no matter what.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-19T09:49:43.4619148-05:00
@Haroush http://247wallst.com/banking-finance/2010/05/17/the-net-worth-of-the-american-presidents-washington-to-obama/3/ Abe Lincoln was the 16th President, listed on the 3rd page, and his presidential salary was $25,000 a year. As for fiscally responsible states: http://mercatus.org/statefiscalrankings there's an easy to read map for you; not as good as you convince yourself. I agree with your technology reference, however every state and every person in the nation (Grizzly Adams excused) DEPENDS on technology 100%. As far as a disaster happening and all of a sudden everything technology is gone and nature is still solvent; no way. You're talking bombs, chemicals, radioactivity, etc. What is not wiped out by initial attacks will CERTAINLY be wiped out by the effects of loss of technology that you are not accounting for: anarchy, crime, satellites falling from orbit, planes dropping from the air, nuclear power plants exploding, military missile systems going off or warheads leaking, factories exploding, chemicals all over the world that are no longer maintained leaking and exploding, and SO much more. Open your eyes. I know you may run around like Grizzly Adams and watch a bunch of preper shows; heck, you may have your own bunker in your back yard, but fact of the matter is if some disaster that large occurs, MAYBE 0.001% of the world's population will survive and those people will be the politicians and the wealthiest of the wealthy that get those government bunkers.
Haroush says2015-07-19T10:16:49.5982081-05:00
Well I know we disagree on this topic but I will tell you this. If I survive some crazy event that WILL eventually take place, I will help everyone that survives to become successful and do my best show those around me what love really stands for. Not only that, but help create a society that depends on nature and not any form of artificial technology.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-19T10:30:33.6133536-05:00
@Haroush What exactly are we in disagreement on? Lincoln's income? Proof given. Lincoln couldn't pay for war? Proof given. Economic solvency and responsibility by state? Proof given. Reason the wealthy business owners move to the South? Well it's pretty obvious -- proof given. Reason why slave trade didn't boom in the U.S. until the business owners moved? Proof given. Reason why Grizzly Adams, or yourself, would not survive in the fashion you so certainly believe you can after a global disaster that destroys the world's infrastructure sending the world into complete chaos and anarchy? Proof given. What am I missing here?
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-19T10:43:48.2987688-05:00
@Haroush Show people what love really stands for? Think about it, you're talking about people that just had their entire existence snatched from them in the blink of an eye with no way of regaining it, they probably lost everyone they know and love and they now live in a world where they are forced to murder, pillage, scrounge, suffer, etc. just to live. At the same time they are all constantly in fear for their lives and have no trust for anyone due to all the gangs running around killing for the fun of it. Do you really think they will have the mindset or the desire to love you and trust you? Just think simply of the psychological disorders they will have at that point, PTSD, uncontrollable rage, night terrors, all the stuff our soldiers are going through right now except on elephant steroids pumped with elephant steroids infused with T-Rex steroids since they don't have a safe place, no counselors, no medications, no therapy, no support groups, no family, no ANYTHING....Just a random guy most likely wearing either military BDUs or decked out in hippie getup with his arms outstretched saying "Come, let me hug you friend, you need love." That isn't working very well at all for Obama in a relatively stable world, what makes you think it will work out for you in a post-apocalyptic world? Then help create a society dependent on nature, not advancement of the human race? And what happens when you get those people in your group that are tired of it and want advancement? What happens when you run into another group who has focused on rebuilding and is recruiting your people from under your nose or even worse, they are getting ready to invade your land and wipe you and your people out of existence? Like I said, think it through COMPLETELY. It's not Hollywood, this is real life Haroush and you're applying concepts that would NEVER workout in the real world.
TBR says2015-07-19T10:59:58.0332143-05:00
Not completely caught-up on the thread, but love the descriptors MakeSensePeopleDont.
Haroush says2015-07-19T13:13:17.1222150-05:00
Imagination is creation and creation is imagination manifested from your mind to reality. Your brain is more powerful than you think it is.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-07-19T13:43:46.9792861-05:00
@TBR thanks buddy, the T-Rex went a bit overboard but it added a hint of comedy to the post.
Haroush says2015-07-19T19:58:12.9990209-05:00
You think it is funny but when you connect yourself to the universe (as crazy as it sounds). You are capable of much more than are if you aren't. Ever wonder autistic kids are some of the most intelligent beings on this earth?
Haroush says2015-07-19T20:00:08.2972391-05:00
*You are capable of much more than if you aren't.
Haroush says2015-07-19T20:01:42.7504562-05:00
Have you ever heard of Jacob Barnet?
Haroush says2015-07-19T20:04:16.9306226-05:00
The problem is people like you and others think common sense is all you need when in fact it is not. You can be one of the most knowledgeable people in the world, but with artistic ability you are nothing.
Haroush says2015-07-19T20:05:09.1508273-05:00
* but without artistic ability you are nothing.
Haroush says2015-07-19T20:09:49.3642311-05:00
Geez, talk about typos..
weathermantiger says2015-07-20T19:21:06.2723065-05:00
Besides the adverse effect on the economy, high wages for unskilled jobs teach children/teens that they don't need to learn skills, get degrees, think, etc. in order to live comfortably. A living wage for jobs that will be replaced with robots in the next ten years is positively reinforcing bad behavior.
Haroush says2015-07-21T13:02:01.5959771-05:00
Thinking doesn't require learning knowledge that won't be beneficial to everyone in the future. How about f*** those people who want to use robots and don't care about the rest of humanity. That's what I say.. Boycott intellectual robots.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-10T20:14:22.6553154Z
@Haroush -- Sry, ADD going nuts here but.....What would happen if you boycott boycotting? Would that be hypocritical? LOL.

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