@mwedwards True, it is illegal to sell human fetuses under 42 U.S. Code § 289g—2. But their is one exception. The law prohibits the purchase or sale of fetal tissue for an amount of money that would exceed the seller’s cost of transporting, processing, implanting, monitoring, and storage. Planned Parenthood charged the exact price as all those operating costs. Therefor they did not break the law (got to love loopholes).
@58539672: Wow, that makes it all better. That makes me feel better. Even if they are not doing it illegally, I highly doubt they aren't doing it for profit, there is still the question of whether or not it is right.
@mwedwards I can understand why some would find it appalling and in a way I kind of find the act disturbing myself, but as far as the law of the United States is concerned, they have done nothing wrong.
What's disturbing about it? I ask you too, what is the more moral use of the aborted fetuses? Research or disposal with other bio-waste. Its emotional only. Any objective evaluation would lead to the best use being research.
@58539672: The same argument was used by the Nazis during the Nuremberg Trials. They justified their actions by saying it was the law of their nation, therefore they had "done nothing wrong". I don't think we should justify actions by what the law dictates are right or wrong.
@TBR its the same kind of disturbing as eating a hamburger and thinking about the animal that was slaughtered to make it. Im not suggesting that they stop what their doing, it just sounds... Weird to me. Selling human fetuses isn't exactly something I want to think about.
There are lots of disturbing things that happen in science and medicine. Our bodys are icky things, and smell bad. Slaughter houses are unpleasant too, no doubt. The output from a slaughterhouse ends up at Ruth Crisps where I gladly pay more than pp charges researchers to fed-ex valuable research material. It is more moral for pp to aid researchers then for me to eat a nice diner, and few would begrudge me the indulgence of the best stake house in the entire world.
@TBR: What do you mean I have to prove anything? You attacked my position on nothing more than your opinion. I asked for a site that supported your claim, you have failed to do this. I have asked for a site to the video you want me to watch, you have failed to do this. You claim that it is only propaganda, but we already know you are making this assumption from a biased platform, so give me video you watched, or better yet a site that "thoroughly debunks" the whole thing. "Immoral in this case is all in your head." Oh my gosh, we just had this discussion. I think it wrong to abort in the first place TBR, therefore I think it is all bad. But even then, I don't think you could support the argument that selling the parts for profit is moral. By your argument, you would believe that it would be most moral to give the parts for free to research, no money involved. "What's disturbing about it?" Again, we JUST TALKED ABOUT THIS LIKE YESTERDAY!!!!!! Do you not get that I am opposed to abortion? I thought I made that clear.
You can be opposed to abortion, but not make a false assertion, with no proof, and have anyone take you seriously. This video is the only video that 'prolife' has been spouting off about, and when watched it has no offer to sell fetuses. This is so a case of confirmation basis. You want to believe it is true, and have never actually watched the fu@@ing video.
And, to close it out, yes I could and would make the argument that it is moral to sell fetuses for research. The only reason we can't sell them is insane backward morals. Would you rather the be disposed?
@TBR: "What do you mean you don't have to prove anything!" Then we are equal here. Neither one of us seem to agree here, so we will move on. "You can be opposed to abortion, but not make a false assertion, with no proof, and have anyone take you seriously." You seem to take me seriously. You can't seem to stop arguing with me. ;) Still haven't provided proof, so you fall under your own arg.I I Is there any way you could provide me with the site for the video you keep talking about. There are several, so I would like the one you are using specifically. "You want to believe it is true, and have never actually watched the fu@@ing video." Geez, you don't like to listen to my requests do you? "Would you rather the be disposed? Holy.........Guaca..........Mole. I would rather there be no bodies to dispose of. I have said this, a lot.
What the he11 are you talking about. Yes you do. You can't make a statement, and have no proof, the ask ME to disprove it. I helpfully provided the link to the video in question, and you won't even look. You have the bop for the initial statement! It is completely false, and the problem you face is, you have no way to prove otherwise. Now, back to Donald Trumps obsession with hooker bone marrow. Going to disprove that?
@TBR:"You can't make a statement, and have no proof, the ask ME to disprove it." I didn't ask you to disprove it! You waltz in and just said it was incorrect. Jeepers. "I helpfully provided the link to the video in question, and you won't even look." You have not given me a link. " You have the bop for the initial statement!" You are the challenger of the statement with no basis! I can discredit baseless statements with baseless statements. Besides, you have conceded that there is evidence for my side by claiming that the videos that were taken don't show anything. That means you have admitted there is evidence! Henceforth my BOP has been met, and you have failed to discredit it as you have not provided any convincing arguments that the videos were false, and have not even provided me a link to the specific video you were referring to. Even if you find a way to argue against this, I still come out on top because it is a topic that when you google it, has many sites that discuss it and talk about the evidence. You have not provided a single site that says the evidence does not support my position. This is not something I have just come up with in my spare time, as you did with your example of Donald Trump. The topic we are discussing has actual evidence, not hair-brained ideas. Fine though, I will provide you with a site that covers a lot of it. http://www.wnd.com/2015/07/planned-parenthood-faces-new-charge-it-broke-law/ I would like to point out here that Hillary Clinton even found the videos to be disturbing, so if a potential presidential candidate who actually supports the program is worried, then I think my first statement gains incredible warrant. It also talks about how there are even more videos coming out, and also that all the footage, 300 hours worth, will be released in time as well. Now, please provide your sites. "It is completely false, and the problem you face is, you have no way to prove otherwise." You have given me nothing to work with here TBR. You are trying to say I can't prove anything, but you're doing the same thing! You are being hypocritical, but to make you happy I have provided a source. "There are not 'several' videos. You have provided nothing, so far you talk directly out of your a@@." Geez, for someone who seems to discredit it all so quickly, you don't know much about this. There are 4 out now, and more to come.
The sad part imabench is, all I really wanted was for him to watch the video for himself. This has been a completely insane bit of social engineering. Say you have proof (pro-life) of some nonsense and they will believe it every time. The actual video is clear enough, and they simple refuse to watch it.
@imabench: Thank you for providing with a source. I would like to point out that although this very convincing in regards to one video, it does not however provide any convincing arguments for the other videos that followed. After the time this article was created there have been several other videos were released, all of which are not taken into account by the article you provided me with because they occurred later in the future. Would you like those videos?
"Planned parenthood provides several beneficial services to women."
Sure if you consider abortions to be beneficial. Everything else in the way of contraception and such can be bought down at Rite-Aid or CVS.
And the selling fetus thing ... Why would they kill it in a particular manner to preserve organs if they werent going to turn around and use those organs through sale or donation? They arent doing the implants themselves, thats not a service they offer, so follow the trail. Thats proof enough that they are being sold or traded to someone somewhere. Trade is what im more confident is happening. They do it through the loophole and at no actual cost ... But get funding pulled to their organization some other way. 'Donate' them off to medical testing labs or something so those guys can come back and lobby for increased funding for PP. Theres some trail for sure. They arent ripping organs out of babies out of the goodness of their heart.
@FreedomBeforeEquality - Aborting the fetus in a manor that allows best use for the fetus in research is logical. They aren't "selling" the fetus, but using the fetus is much more moral than disposing it. Why toss good what can be used?
If they cared about wasting resources they wouldnt have let the thing grow to be several months old and wasted all that food energy and time making this thing youre just going to kill anyways. Talk about a waste. Perhaps if they had taken steps earlier there would have been considerably less waste.
Take it down a notch. Since there is legal abortion, and the material will be disposed of otherwise, what is the best use for the aborted fetus? I know its hard, but please.... The answer is completely reasonable.
Dispose of it. Same argument any animal activist will tell you. You dont need to be testing on beings that cant deny services. There are chips out there that can simulate the functions of all the major organs of the body working in unison, that can be used for medical testing. I know because I make them. We dont need to sell ourselves short on our morals to make progress. If we wouldnt feel right doing it to an animal ... Why on earth would it be remotely ok on a human?
Hey hey though ... I didnt choose dumpster. I didnt make the baby. Dont try and put this on me. In fact now that you mention it this seems like an even worse idea in the sense that it takes away from the consequences of having the abortion in the first place, because now you make it out to not be a total waste and for medical testing and stuff. Is that supposed to give someone the warm and fuzzy after what was just done? If so, we dont want that going around either.
"It is sooo not hypocritical to want to provide researchers what would otherwise end-up in a bio-waste furnace (its destination regardless)."
Yes, yes it is. Or providing researchers with mice that would just otherwise end up as hawk and snake shit. But we arent talking about mice even ... We are talking about humans.
I don't expect to turn you on abortion, but on the subject of ethical behavior, this is a no brainier. The only reason to NOT do the research is emotional. The emotional response is not ethical or moral, it only clouds the judgment in this case.
"What "video" are you talking about?" The video that caused all this sh** recently is actually just one of now four videos that were released attempting to detail Planned Parenthoods actions as an organization. The one that succeeded in causing the most drama was video number 3
I have seen other videos in the past, but no others about "selling" tissue. Regardless, the notion that PP getting money for shipping what is waste material to researchers that can use it is very silly. This does not break the letter or spirit of the law.
Dilara - Nice to see you. Tell you what, rather than just cover the same ground, PP is not selling fetuses, lets talk about how good it IS that the fetuses are being used. Would you rather that they were disposed of in regular bio-waste, or used for positive research?
I can't send you a link because I'm on my iPod. The name of the group who put out we videos is called the center for medical progress. Look that up on YouTube and to their page. They have 9 videos up in total.
Well, share the video you are most concerned with, and I would be happy to discuss. So far the only suspects of criminal activity I see are the people making these videos. I am sure they werent all in single-party consent states.
Thanks for the link Dilara. Can you tell me the video you are talking about though? I really want to get somewhere with these videos, but so far have seen nothing. Your last statement makes me thing there is little to it still. What video is in issue please?
So you've watched it? You watched the under cover reporter say " that's exactly what were doing" referring to paying the doc for the specimen, not including compensation. You watched the two doctors push around the "clump of cells" and say "it's a boy" and "a nother baby".
OK. Lets work through it. "So you've watched it?" - Yes || "You watched the under cover reporter say " that's exactly what were doing" referring to paying the doc for the specimen, not including compensation." - Sure, what he says does not square with what the doctor says. The shill recording the video can say whatever he likes, changes nothing. || " You watched the two doctors push around the "clump of cells" and say "it's a boy" and "a nother baby"." Again, what of it? The fetus was a boy. 50/50 chance of that, right?
Let me tell all how I view these videos. You have shills (literal shills) trying their best to entrap people (who you disagree with) who are doing a tough service for below market rate with a crime (that is not much of a crime). At no time do they commit said crime, but with lots of creepy music, and preconceived notions - you the pro-life viewer - are seeing and hearing exactly what you want to see and hear.
The unedited versions are also on youtube. And it's obvious that get indian doctor was getting paid to provide the journalists with Tissue-not compensating though. She was profiting off of it
And people call unborn babies clumps of cells-when at 11 weeks the unborn babies have hands, legs, a heart, lungs, a brain and a head, as we saw in the video. 11 week old fetuses like that one are miniature babies. Watching a murdered baby be poked around, after it was sucked out of it's home makes me Ill.
And it's not like they're just some people I disagree with. These are psychopaths who are doing something illegal.
"The unedited versions are also on youtube. And it's obvious that get indian doctor was getting paid to provide the journalists" - well lets stop with that, and object to the term 'journalists, but... || "with Tissue-not compensating though. She was profiting off of it" - NOPE. Not even close. She was not profiting and the clinic was not profiting. They were recouping costs. Do you think 40$ is making them money? Seriously. || "And people call unborn babies clumps of cells-when at 11 weeks the unborn babies have hands, legs, a heart, lungs, a brain and a head, as we saw in the video. 11 week old fetuses like that one are miniature babies." - This is senseless rhetoric. It in NO way proves what you want to prove. || "Watching a murdered baby be poked around, after it was sucked out of it's home makes me Ill." - Do you think we didn't know that? OK, you lost your lunch. Want to see a procedure sure to make you blow chunks? I can find it, or he11, just take ONE course in microbiology and try to STOP washing your hands. || "And it's not like they're just some people I disagree with. These are psychopaths who are doing something illegal." - Yawn.....
So you know that it's murderer and that fetuses are babies. And you've seen the murderer procedure close up so you know what it looks like. Doesn't it bother you to see a dead baby being poked around? Doesn't the idea of a baby being murdered make you cringe?. And people who kill them are murderers.
If the stuff planned parenthood is doing is legal than why are they trying to stop the release of more videos? If they're not selling organs and just talking about compensation than why can't we watch he videos? They have nothing to hide right?.
"So you know that it's murderer" - So, its NOT. How many times do we have to do this. Murder is a legal charge. Abortion is LEGAL. No murder. || "and that fetuses are babies." - 'Babies' is ambiguous in this context. If you insist, fine, but it is not a good term for a fetus. || "And you've seen the murderer procedure close up so you know what it looks like." - OK, yup. || "Doesn't it bother you to see a dead baby being poked around? Doesn't the idea of a baby being murdered make you cringe?." - All bits and pieces of the results of medical procedures is gross. This is no different. || "And people who kill them are murderers." - That is some convincing logic. How about you try to prosecute. || "If the stuff planned parenthood is doing is legal than why are they trying to stop the release of more videos?" - Don't know that they are, but if so, good for them. I would be sueing the he11 out of these fraudsters. || "If they're not selling organs and just talking about compensation than why can't we watch he videos? They have nothing to hide right?." - If there is a crime, the videos should go to prosecutors, not be edited for effect, released with ominous music to elicit emotion FROM YOU. If there were a crime, they would charge these people. There is no crime.
"Freedom: I have a question, why are the fetuses people but not say a lab rat. Afterall a rat has a far larger and more complex brain than the fetus does until late in the pregnancy."
Oh I dont go off of brain size. If there were a more intelligent being (say an alien of some sort), I'd have less qualms dissecting and testing that thing still before any human. Call it self preservation, human preservation, whatever. Looking out for your own race is something natural, and quite frankly you can tell alot about a people based on how they treat the rest of their race.
TBR. So if it were legal To kill 3 year olds and someone killed one would that be murderer?. These are alive babies whose lives were taken. And seeing dead babies is different than seeing the leftovers from other procedures because these babies were at least potential lives that could have become humans--if they weren't all ready. And they resemble humans so much--the hands, feet, eyes ect. If tumors or amputated arms would have otherwise grown into humans and looked like miniature humans than looking at them would be the same as looking at an aborted baby
And the full unedited versions if the videos are availible.
Here is what I don't get. If we disagree with abortions fine, but if they're going to happen anyway, what is wrong with using the biological material left over from the abortions to help advance science?
Further more, why do people hate planned parenthood? When my kid's mother got pregnant we were young and didn't know anything about it, other than the fact it said planned parenthood on the building. She was pregnant, so we went in there and asked them what to do? They gave us lists of OBGYNs and explained how to prepare for a baby, and really helped us out a lot. They didn't even mention abortion to us, we had no ideal they even did abortions. I'm personally pro-life, but to this day protests against planned parenthood just annoy and anger the crap out of me. Young parents are going in there for help and these idiots outside are screaming at them and holding up signs. It actually probably discourages many young parent to be's from going in there to learn about scheduling an appointment with an OBGYN, applying for WIC and taking prenatal vitamins. Planned parenthood protestors can go screw themselves!
@Dilara - "So if it were legal To kill 3 year olds and someone killed one would that be murderer?." - Yes it would be murder. The fetus is living off the pregnant woman. It is subject to her conceit. || "These are alive babies whose lives were taken." - Well, first, again, 'baby' is ambiguous. A fetus does not fit the dictionary definition of a baby, but you use the term to make the discussion more emotional. What is your objection to calling a fetus a fetus? || "And seeing dead babies is different than seeing the leftovers from other procedures because these babies were at least potential lives that could have become humans--if they weren't all ready." - That is all about your emotional connection. It is dead tissue at that point. || "And they resemble humans so much--the hands, feet, eyes ect. If tumors or amputated arms would have otherwise grown into humans and looked like miniature humans than looking at them would be the same as looking at an aborted baby And the full unedited versions if the videos are availible." - Look. You can 'feel' however you like. If you have handled a severed limb, you might react differently. One is not 'more' anything, its all in your mind.
You're welcome. I'm not sure where people get the ideal that PP is merely an abortion clinic. From my experience they seem like a non partisan type of organization that just helps young people who are pregnant. They don't suggest anything or push anything on you, they merely provide you with the resources to take whatever course of action you think is best.
"but if they're going to happen anyway"
Because thats conceding to a negative thing and in turn promoting that thing. This is the exact type of stuff that people tried to warn about when you head down slopes like this. How can you be so detached from causation here? By making good come out of a bad situation you are covering over the bad aspects and desensitizing people to it. Then youre gonna end up having a defect like legalized abortion embedded into the culture because other practices will have become dependent on it.
Defunding PP is in essence a root cause solution to all the rest of the negative practices (cannibalizing organs for profit) that will come about from having legalized the killing of our own people.
Defunding PP is in no way a solution to your perceived problem. It exasperated a slew of other problems, but does not help your cause. Further, it seems the pro-choice side runs on emotion only. This is a optics problem, simply. Doing this may make you "feel good" but has helped no one
I've seen some studies that showed, defunding planned parenthood would increase the amount of abortions, which kinda makes sense, because pregnant women will have less resources to prevent pregnancy or seek the help they need to have a successful pregnancy.
@Wylted - The ripples would be noticeable. Add to that (had to look it up) PP consists of 54 abortion affiliates (places where PP does abortions). There are ~2,000 abortion providers in the US. Since none of the money from the fed funds the ~3% of the PP budget, defunding it would only wreck their other services that help to reduce the number of abortions necessary. Good job pro-lifers. Once again, making the world a little crappier for everyone.
Lol, I'm pro life too, but this campaign against planned parenthood is stupid. Why the hell would the focus be on that organization instead of private ones who specialize in and only do abortions? Also, why the hell would they go outside and protest with signs and make these very private emotional events that much worse for women who have to go through them?
@Wylted - That is... Well messed-up. Its not that PP could not operate as a profit driven company, they would do just fine. The simple fact is, they would have to turn a lot of people away, and that would have an adverse effect on women health. So, more unplanned pregnancy, more abortion, less early cancer screening, more costs to society. Its a loosing argument.
Lemme run this one by you, suppose upon death by any means, (murder, what have you ...) that we were allowed to sell off organs or receive tax write offs for donating them or for science or any number of other motivators you could give a person to make them want to sell off organs for. At what point are you putting the value of that persons life lower than the potential the organs in their body are worth? How can you not see a conflict of interest there? It's literally something straight out of a horror flick.
You seemingly innocently enough are creating an outlet for people to trade organs. How do you see that not leading to them being sold at private institutions if PP is over here breaking ground doing what they do? You dont see it happening that someone gets drugged and gets their kidney stolen? This stuff doesnt happen here because there is no outlet for things like that to be traded or for people to profit of of that sort of thing. This is just a step in that direction.
@FreedomBeforeEquality - You are still stuck in the mindset that they WERE selling fetuses. They simply were not. However, I will go with your questions. My dead body is worthless to me. I hope others will get use from it when I am dead. All this "worth" crap gets magically sorted in your vision of perfect capitalism. Regardless, a crime what we as a society say it is. If it were no illegal to sell our body parts after death, and the parts become worth more than the life person, what of it? I don't see much difference between that context and another.
And all that aside I dont like to have to pay for any of this in the first place. Im basically paying for a person to go to PP ... Grow a child on my dime ... Abort it on my dime ... And all the 'wasted biomaterial' gets to go profit some company out there. One big vicious circle of robbing me blind and disseminating my earnings to companies through a chain of transactions, hiding the trail.
Defunding it destroys the market for such things. Defunding people who take uncalculated risks under the shelter of government programs, Thats how defunding would stop abortions. Again people who advocated for such programs made the argument, like you did, that "oh people are gonna abort anyways, might as well give them a free ride to do it and keep them from dumping it in the alley trashcans". You think they're inevitabilities, but they can be solved, they arent inevitable.
"And all that aside I dont like to have to pay for any of this in the first place. Im basically paying for a person to go to PP ... Grow a child on my dime ... Abort it on my dime ... And all the 'wasted biomaterial' gets to go profit some company out there. One big vicious circle of robbing me blind and disseminating my earnings to companies through a chain of transactions, hiding the trail." - Well.... Your dime is not even a dime to PP. I doubt you are paying enough in taxes to even be giving them one dime. That's not the point, but OK, say you are. The net benefit is for our society.
"Defunding it destroys the market for such things. Defunding people who take uncalculated risks under the shelter of government programs, Thats how defunding would stop abortions. Again people who advocated for such programs made the argument, like you did, that "oh people are gonna abort anyways, might as well give them a free ride to do it and keep them from dumping it in the alley trashcans". You think they're inevitabilities, but they can be solved, they arent inevitable." - Are you ignoring that PP gets no money for abortions? Are you ignoring that PP helps to reduce the need for abortion? No free ride. Go to a clinic and ask how much it costs to preform an abortion? Now, go out and see how much a indigent woman has to pay for a birth. Who is taking you money?
"You say they weren't ... Perhaps because they are a non-profit. That doesnt mean they arent laying the groundwork for every private practice out there." - According to your other arguments, so what? Free market solves all issues like these. However, I will say your statement is as cynical as my statement.
There is not ONE OBGYN who is preforming abortions with an eye to get rich. It is an incredibly costly practice, with huge costs they could otherwise avoiding. They are doing it in-part as a extension of their perception of moral value. A good OBGYN will make more doing other procedures, that is very clear.
Regardless of the benefit ... Its something we should be in control of. If i wanted to make donations to charity cases like PP, I would have.
And think about that "not selling organs" statement you made. What kind of business gets its members to beging conducting extra work for themselves without some kind of incentive? Nowhere youve worked, im sure, would have a work culture that continuously improves and grows if the company didnt reward it or have a plan for how to move this new line of product theyve created. The idea came from somewhere and Im sure it wasnt from the janitor saying to himself "why are we just throwing these red bio bags in the garbage? Theres people out there that could use this stuff. Maybe we should change protocol and revamp our facility, buy new equip, etc. to store and trade this stuff with medical research labs?". Because the medical industry has never been known to butter up places with gifts and stuff. My wifes practice gets free lunch from a new drug supplier every single day.
"Are you ignoring that PP gets no money for abortions? Are you ignoring that PP helps to reduce the need for abortion? No free ride. Go to a clinic and ask how much it costs to preform an abortion? Now, go out and see how much a indigent woman has to pay for a birth. Who is taking you money?"
They are an extension of the people funding them! The whole term "Hide behind a non-profit" doesnt chime with you? Its a racket. The money isnt stored in PP's coffers ... Its kept back at the place that funded it.
"Free market solves all issues like these. However, I will say your statement is as cynical as my statement."
Free market would, were the government not making this particular businesses services free to the public. You can't compete with free. They are covering those services with borrowed money. No private business can contend with that because they cant steal the money from your paycheck like the government can and spend it however they want.
@FreedomBeforeEquality - OK, lets unpack a couple of these things. First, PP operates a very few clinics that offer abortion. They operate, as I said, about 55. There are ~2000 abortion clinics in the US. You can count more if you include hospitals were abortions are preformed by necessity. PP is just a tiny little bit of this. Of that tiny bit, the abortion services they offer are a tiny bit (less than 5%) of their business. Its a red-hearing to jump up and down about PP. Since the abortions they DO provide are paid for, the costs of that service are funneled BACK towards NON-abortion services of PP. So.... Again, this seems counterproductive for the pro-life groups or someone who is concerned about PPs finances.
As for the drug companies largess - they are disgusting.
No money is exchanged though. The same kind of under the table dealings go on between research labs that are trying to develop the next drug for these guys to shell back to us. That is how they deal. In gifts and donations, and legislation. Theres a money trail there too ... Its apparently convoluted enough for people to think these guys arent technically selling organs ... Just as they think those donations are convoluted enough that people wont realize they are buying doctors approval and recommendations for drugs.
"A good OBGYN will make more doing other procedures, that is very clear." Yes, and this poll is about the OBGYN that found that very procedure youre talking about. Kudos to her right?" - Nope. A surgical OBGYN will make much more money doing other procedures. This is demonstrable.
Not everyone walks out the door every day with your profit motive mind. Many want to do something they feel benefits the society they live in. I am not saying an abortion provider will live like a monk, but they could make more, and with considerably less hassle. They do it because they believe in it.
Planned Parenthood receives about a third of its money in government grants and contracts (about $360 million in 2009). 318M people in the US.
Also this would pretty much states that Ive paid at least $1 to it every year. And thats assuming that the rest of the 318M people in the US are paying taxes too ... Which they arent ... So I could have paid considerably more out of my tax for this program.
Freedom: we all have our taxes used for things we dont like. Huge amounts of our tax dollars go to wars despite the fact that many americans dont support them. There are some people who dont think that women should be educated but their tax dollars still go to educating women.
Please be a little more specific when you talk about big government. What kind of government would you like? Also we are certainly not letting people "invest in what they want" instead they vote what they want the government to invest their tax dollars in. We also dont want tiny little communities doing whatever they want. What if one community wants to castrate gay people? A large democratic government provides the most safetly to its citizens, becouse while everyone likes to talk about state tyranny, they often forget about the tyranny of private institutions and small groups of radicals.
FreedomBeforeEquality - Wait wait wait. You know taxes don't work that way. The US government collected 3.7 trillion in taxes. The 380m out to pp is a very small percentage, but if you want to be fair, divide the 3.7t by what you paid in taxes. Now you have a percentage that reflects YOUR input. Now, work that 380m as a percentage of the expenditures of the government. So, discretionary spending of 1.11t. You are paying pennies to PP. I think you know how dishonest that last bit of back of the envelope math was.
Lets "get real" with those numbers. Setting the stage - Federal income from tax = 3.7t. Federal spending = 3.8t. Money to PP (your number) = 360m. PP is getting ~ 0.00009729730 % of the money you pay in tax. Looked up the average per-person fed tax @~$4,800 (that seems very low, but...) so... 0.467027027 to PP.
TBR. If you have kids, nephews or nieces you probably knew them before they were born. Did you say to your wife "our babies kicking" or "look at our baby in that ultra sound". Fetuses look like babies by about 8 weeks and by 12 weeks have livers, hearts, a head, lungs and all of the body parts we have. They have the same anatomy as us. The only difference is their size and developmental stage.
And I guess a conjoined twin can kill it's twin because that twin is dependent off of it's body. And we can kill brain dead people who are deep dark on ventilators or sick people who are dependent on healthy people for care.
TBR. I base my opinion on facts. The fact is a fetus is miniature human by 8 weeks. Pro life lie people use facts for our arguments and don't purposely lie to dehumanizes victims and justify actions--like the lie that a fetus is a clump of cells when it's obviously not. If you have to lie to justify something you shouldn't do it.
TBR. By 8 weeks the baby has nural pathways. Watch the documentary silent scream. It's 28 minutes long and it's on youtube. It will make you pro life.
And no matter the age it's not ever ok to kill a human unless it is threatening your health or life (unhealthy pregnancies, someone trying to hurt you ect). Everyone deserves chance at life.
TBR. You saw the 12 week old fetus squirming away from the canula. So you see how the baby does feel pain and want to live at that point. http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-12-weeks thats how old that baby was. He would be around 30 by now.
I dont need to use that progressive percentage when I know I lie in one of those average or above tax brackets. The number of people who paid like me would normalize any few richer persons contributions and the poorer peoples number among the population that did not contribute. Those values end up being roughly equal.
Also you keep calling it an argument based on emotion only ... What do you call the emotions running through a person who thinks their life is going to be ruined because they are having a child. Any reason they can think of for aborting it would be purely based on emotion. Scared that they arent going to make money, scared that they wont be able to go out anymore, scared that they will be stuck with the father perhaps, afraid that they wont be a good parent, fear that it'll come out abnormal ... Emotion drives the want to abort, not the other way around.
If you say so. Supposing I was wrong and a distribution curve could not be used and was "juvenile", youre still supposing then that the rich guy who paid a much higher percent should have more say than I since he was taxed more. Thats certainly not the way tax money is supposed to work ... Except maybe behind closed doors. I guess this shows yet another flaw in progressive taxation ... You dont end up getting the equal measure of say in gov't dealings unless everyone pays equally.
@FreedomBeforeEquality - I would have to roll back through the comments, but the point was not to argue progressive tax, it was to show what a infinitesimal expenditure this is, and that we are getting a good service for very little. Not every dollar spent by the government (your taxes) needs to benefit you directly. There are a host of things much more expensive that the government spends our money on that I find objectionable, but I demand my congress shutdown the government over. Its is this childish habit that conservatives have gotten into. It is, in a word, selfish.
"it was to show what a infinitesimal expenditure this is, and that we are getting a good service for very little."
It may be a small expenditure on my part alone ... But the point has still not been made that it is towards a "good service". In light of that ... Any expenditure at all would be bad, I don't care how little. If I had to weigh what good does come from it ... Hundreds of millions of dollars is not worth that little bit of good it may have done. I think it needs to be shown how providing people the means to not have to be responsible for their actions is worth 360M/yr. That negative alone outweighs any of the few innocents that might be helped by this program.
Why not? The only reason I can imagine that you would not call for them to quit building is that there is something redeemable about their being constructed. As far as abortion goes, there is not. Maybe youve created a few nursing jobs or something ... Thats about it.
@FreedomBeforeEquality - Because I live in a diverse society. I work to change peoples minds, not force my beliefs on others. The pro-life community is deaf to pro-choice because they must insist on their beliefs. As for your calculation of job creation, I think you (as a financial conservative) should look at the actual cost of no abortion. It is HUGE!
"You have an emotional attachment that makes anything else seem grotesque."
She must be human and not a Vulcan. This place isnt being run by robots or any other race blind to the elements that make life meaningful.
Its huge if you pay for it for them. I don't advocate for that either, though. "I work to change peoples minds, not force my beliefs on others." - It's the same thing, no matter how sly you are about it. You have still forced the issue if you completely change the environment around that person, the environment they have to live in and be exposed to constantly. You go on thinking youre not hurting everyone by standing for this. Youre dead wrong.
@FreedomBeforeEquality - This is why it is often said, conservatives are pro-birth, not pro life. Children dying after birth, well that's just too bad. || Lets say that the majority of the country decided to outlaw abortion. I would keep working to change minds. I have no interest in forcing anyone to have an abortion, its the pro-life that want to force something.
Well honestly killing is something that justifies a use of force. Were this any other topic that didnt go against a human beings natural rights ... I suppose I could agree that force should not be required up front. That is not the case here. You cant just sit back and try to persuade murderers not to murder since any hesitation is allowing for further loss of life.
Is manslaughter murder? I always think that the "murder" charge comes from people just attempting to play rhetoric games. If ever it was outlawed, it still would not be murder. It would be closes to manslaughter.
No... "without malice" I think would be the key. As best I know, there were no murder charges ever before Roe Wade. The only charges I have ever herd of were charges against "providers" pre-73, and best I know, and only for the damage to the women they inflicted.
Well sure ... And there are plenty of warcrimes that go unrecognized or unpunished too. We could have been ignorant about them up to a point. Once youre in a position to recognize whats going on and know the elements that are making it up ... Once you have the ability to capture all of that and punish for it ... Then you could charge someone. It maybe just hadnt had a case built up for it yet. It doesn't mean people weren't still repulsed by the idea of it going on. You can blame the media for bringing it into the limelight, if it was done in the background with some discretion ... The nation might have let it go.
You can prove that there was malice and intent simply by knowing whether or not the person attended highschool or not. If they were educated about what would happen if they had sex, where babies come from, in any way, then any action that led to an abortion was done with the knowledge that this was a real risk. Something theyd have to take responsibility for when it occurs.
Naturally you cant punish for something that people have no knowledge of or cannot control the outcome of. We are well beyond those days as far as how pregnancy comes about. Its not something that 'just happens'.
And there are countless ways to control it that dont involve killing an entirely separate being, not the least of which is that persons own sheer willpower. I think its reasonable to say that all people can control themselves in these situations. If you can't, then there is a problem.
Irresponsible sex. Sexually transmitting a disease you know you have to someone else ... Creating a life and then aborting it ... Performing the acts in inappropriate settings. Yes, i suppose. They all lead to damages to others. Not just sex in general, no.
Actually STDs is a good example of another type of negligence that one could have reasonably made in ignorance just a couple decades ago. Now that it is better understood where they come from and how they are transmitted ... You can make a crime of passing on AIDS to another person. I dont see how the knowledge of pregnancy is any different in that regard, save for that we have known about it for longer. It is generally known though what the irresponsibility in that area leads to in the way of damages upon the rest of us. That should be enough.
@FreedomBeforeEquality - I don't mind talking with you on this subject - you keep an even keel. Diametrically opposed, but one I can deal with. I also don't deny that if you feel as you feel, it is the only "moral" thing to do. One point I have given to very few in the pro-life camp is understanding that my argument comes from a moral perspective too. Hammering home pictures of fetuses, or discussions of the poor baby's. It is a rare few that ever seem capable of seeing it as a truly moral argument from pro-choice. I know we will cross paths on this one again.
What d you mean?
And how can we not have emotion involved in a conversation about an act that has been proven to kill babies as they squirm away?.
And the pro life community is very open minded. People like Abby Johnson who used to be part of the baby killing industry are welcomed in once they see we what abortion really is. Former abortion doctors like Haywood Robinson and Bernard nathanson are welcomed in. There are many loss fathers and abortion regretters who are part of our movement.
Which is surprising when you think about it Dilara ... That youd forgive someone so readily for what theyd done even before that person had served some sentence to pay for what theyd done. Were it any other crime, it would be unconscionable to take aid from someone or them have any credibility for your side without having fully atoned for their crimes. That just shows how loosely they actually agree, since they arent willing to atone for the crime first before speaking out about it. They could say they regret or whatnot ... No one can know without physical proof. Actions speak louder than words.
Or fine. Maybe a fine is in order ... Since it was more of a shared responsibility on the part of that entire medical community. I couldnt see charging them all with first degree murder counts. That might be going to far.
Im sure there are more creative ways to get the same effect. Abortions were always the last ditch effort, the laziest way to clean up after someones irresponsibility, really. Its just sad to see it on the rise and becoming the norm with more and more people becoming desensitized to it. It doesnt really help to drive people to innovate a better way to go about preventing it from happening in the first place. Again its just lazy.