Should a Homosexual business owner be forced to print "Homosexuality is a Sin" T-Shirts?

Posted by: Tonius5

If a Homosexual owned a shirt printing business, should they be forced to print anti-Homosexuality shirts for Christian customers?

  • Yes.

  • No.

23% 5 votes
77% 17 votes
  • If Christians have to cater to gay weddings, then gay people who run a businesses like the one in question should have to cater to homophobes. Fair is fair. In fact, just to give the bigots a taste of their own medicine, Conservatives everywhere should go to such places and order homophobic T-Shirts.

  • If people who are against gay marriage have to put "I support gay marriage" on a T-Shirt, then gays should be forced to put, "gay marriage is wrong" also.

  • T-shirt companies are in the business of printing shirts, not censoring their clients' opinions.

  • Because businesses should be able to refuse service that they are not comfortable doing.

  • Gay people do not have to help bigots discriminate. Christians can be petty & hateful, that's their choice, just don't expect help from the people they are victimizing.

  • People should be allowed to deny service to anyone for any reason, even if it's unjustified. We should have more faith in our natural pecking order, because in our era of social media and mass attention directed at the slightest of offenses, I'm confident that any business denying orders unjustly will be called out for it and could essentially ruin themselves, or not if they're correct in doing so and can defend their actions. Let people work it out for themselves.

  • Brian the liberal would say it's bad because it goes against his ideology, but the truth is business owners should be able to do business with who they want. The government should not mandate that business owners can't be prejudiced against certain ideologies

    Posted by: Wylted
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Tonius5 says2015-04-03T12:22:24.0449299-05:00
@Vox_Veritas Equality is a two way street. If Christians must be forced to continue to cater gay weddings, than gays should be forced to print out anti-gay shirts. But in reality, neither should be forced to do anything.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T13:07:56.1586113-05:00
No one has to help hate groups.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T13:09:01.7194929-05:00
You might think this cheap scenario is clever, but it's just made Christians look really lame.
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T13:09:23.9524943-05:00
@Krealin The word "Hate" seems to be getting tossed around a lot when referring to Christians. Almost to the point of: "If you do not have this specific world view, you are hateful." And if Gays don't have to print those shirts, then Christians shouldn't have to bake gay wedding cakes.
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T13:10:41.8395448-05:00
It's not a cheap scenario. It is quite probable... And Christians are not a hate group. You seem to have a fairly big bias towards them. Almost like hate? Nah! Couldn't be.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T13:11:13.3869172-05:00
Gay wedding cakes are not covered in anti christian slogans. Infact they are symbols of love, so quite the opposit.
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T13:13:45.1768294-05:00
"Homosexuality is a sin" is not a slogan. It is a statement based in truth (as homosexuality is indeed a sin). And a Christian should not have to participate in an activity they deem as sinful.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T13:14:51.8138722-05:00
Is that your judgement?
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T13:15:37.6518478-05:00
My judgement? Not at all.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T13:16:43.2976491-05:00
Seems you may be cherry picking the good book for what suits you?
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T13:19:39.6301006-05:00
No cherry picking. I believe homosexuality is a sin, I believe that you should treat people the way you wish to be treated, I believe that you have a right to defend yourself, I believe that criminals should become slaves to repay their debt to society, etc. There is zero cherry picking.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T13:25:04.9473983-05:00
It appears to me that your belief system is your guide, and unquestioningly so. Whislt you are obviously entitled to believe as you wish this isn't really an acceptable reason to discriminate. Perhaps society was better when faith was a private thing and people beleived in a live and let live approach. Having faith that God would judge people and that we should all be tolerant of one another?
shaancl_716 says2015-04-03T13:26:13.2999043-05:00
"The Bible is true because the Bible says it is true"
Kreakin says2015-04-03T13:30:48.5757113-05:00
People are entitled to their beliefs, mockery is not really cool imho.
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T13:32:07.5604376-05:00
Refusing to bake a gay wedding cake is not discrimination. And there is a REASON for it, not an excuse. The same business owners will serve anybody who walks in through the doors. It's about what they're being requested to do, rather than who is doing the requesting. You have a secular world view and you don't seem to understand what a person's religion means to them. You can't just check something like faith at the door and completely abandon it in public. You honestly don't understand that because you do not have a deep connection to beliefs. Expecting everyone to act secular is just wrong on so many levels.
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T13:34:47.2058519-05:00
@shaancl_716 This is not a discussion on whether or not the Bible is correct. Even if God didn't exist, that does not change the fact that homosexuality is a sin. The Bible may just be a piece of paper, but so are laws. And opinions can change neither.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T13:36:59.4417237-05:00
Well it's true that gay couples could exercise more understanding in not going to a Christian shop. There is always both sides. It's also true I don't really have that connection to faith to empathsize. From my perspective I would print the shirts and make the cakes, buisiness is where you find it.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T13:38:33.8185443-05:00
You can't help yourself can you. Why are you so full of vitriol?
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T13:39:07.9708202-05:00
Well. I can understand them going into a Christian shop (There's no real way to tell who owns it unless it's plastered all over the walls). But filing lawsuits instead of simply respecting the owner's decision and taking their business elsewhere.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T13:43:09.1450167-05:00
I guess when both sides feel attacked the sheilds go up and no ones gonna backdown. If they sat and spoke they could even become freinds. You will always get the militant with their own agendas however that make it difficult for everyone.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T13:43:46.7405347-05:00
That's not directed at you btw.
Krampus says2015-04-03T14:10:53.7011013-05:00
The key issue I have with this question is the use of the phrase "Should group A be FORCED to do action B". I believe in freedom, which, by the way, means that people are allowed to do things you do not agree with as long as there is no externalities. No one has a right to go into any business and demand service, any business owner can refuse anyone they want, regardless of if you agree with the reasons or not, be them morally obtuse or not. Business is a VOLUNTARY transaction between one person/group and another. If either side doesn't agree to the terms of the transaction, then no business is done. Simple as that. If someone walks into a store and demands service at the point of a gun ("gun" being government/law compulsion), then that transaction is no longer voluntary. That makes is involuntary servitude, otherwise known as slavery, which we do have laws against. If someone is forced by the government to do something against their own morals because the government decides what is right and wrong, that is Fascism and I don't believe America should be a fascist state. A fascist using government to compel people to do things against their will, is far more of a disgusting human being than a bigot who doesn't want to serve gay people. If someone wants to discriminate, let them. Being a bigot/jerk/a**hole is not illegal, so go somewhere else and let them suffer economically. In a capitalistic society, the only color of people that matters is green. Side note: I don't think if a KKK member was denied cake/flowers/photography to a KKK rally people would be running around screaming how the KKK is being discriminated against just for being in the KKK. Besides, these freedom of religion laws have been on the books for years in almost 20 states every since Bill Clinton signed them into law. People that think discrimination against gays is this widespread issue affecting everyone lack perspective on the true nature of people in this country. America is full of good people who mean well and I firmly believe this is the greatest country on earth.
TBR says2015-04-03T14:27:33.6289506-05:00
I keep suggesting, and seem to get no takers. Read the damn 14 amendment (equal protection before the law), the civil right act of 1964, and just a touch of corporate law. If the shirt shop says it is selling custom tee-shirts, then yes. Now, they could easily pass a line into hate speech, but until that line is passed, SURE!!!
briantheliberal says2015-04-03T14:56:42.0944397-05:00
If you're a Christian and your intent is to print "homosexuality is a sin" on a T-shirt, you're just an a-hole. "God loves me", "Jesus is life", "Proud Christian" and you choose "homosexuality is a sin". I am so glad I am not a hypocritical Christian lunatic.
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T16:06:48.8584083-05:00
@Krampus Very well said! Interesting.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T16:11:42.2311449-05:00
A company can not legally discriminate. Your irrational desire to let them is invalid.
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T16:11:45.4291039-05:00
@briantheliberal I chose that because it directly violates the views and lifestyle of homosexuals. Just like a homosexual wedding goes against Christians. Something like "Jesus is Lord" would not compare well to the recent happenings. It would be like a homosexual asking for a birthday cake instead of a wedding cake.
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T16:12:26.5189771-05:00
@Kreaklin Then change the laws.
Kreakin says2015-04-03T16:14:28.3069923-05:00
Why? They are rational and logical at present, not driven by some mystic belief system. It is very clear neither of you will ever work in law, you are irrational.
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T16:21:56.6604675-05:00
Irrational? Why? I want the government to have extremely limited control over business and the free market. Which means allowing businesses to run themselves with their own policies. I'd be irrational if I wanted a theocracy, which I don't.
Stefy says2015-04-03T16:42:40.5729197-05:00
This situation is not equivalent to the problem with the Indiana Religious Freedom law. For example in this situation you cannot refuse the person business for being a heterosexual/Christian/ect, but you can refuse them because they ask you to provide a specific service that your business does do, like printing offensive tee shirts. Your refusing them based on an individual request, not on the basis of their sexuality, act. Its the same with the religious freedom law. If a person who happens to be gay asks for a nazi swastika wedding cake or something then you can refuse to do that. But you can't refuse a gay person on the basis of their sexuaity if their just doing routine business with you. Now how about everyone just stop being homophobic.
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T17:01:41.6622808-05:00
@Stefy Give me one example of someone denying service on the sole basis of the customer's sexuality. Every single one was about refusing to provide a specific service that goes against the religion of the business owner. So it is the exact same thing.
briantheliberal says2015-04-03T17:48:55.2895733-05:00
"I chose that because it directly violates the views and lifestyle of homosexuals" - No, you chose that because you wanted to be cynical. Demanding a gay shop owner to print "Homosexuality is sin" on a T-shirt is considered hate speech and is in no way comparable to a gay couple asking for a cake for their wedding. The problem with you and other Christians who believe these are even comparable is that you are unable to separate your own personal bias from your business practices. People like you are quick to refuse service to gay weddings, but wouldn't hesitate to bake a cake for or photograph and Jewish Bar Mitzvah when given the opportunity. It's about homophobia, not religious conviction.
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T18:55:30.1675441-05:00
What is hate speech about stating the fact that homosexuality is a sin? Blacks in America have a 50% dropout rate. Was that hate speech? No. It's simple fact. As a Christian, homosexuality offends me deeply and I don't want any part of it. If a homosexual asks me for a favor, then I wouldn't question it. If a homosexual asks me to cater to his wedding, I will decline. I don't know how you find hate in any of that. Going back to the argument: A homosexual might be offended deeply by someone not agreeing with their sexual orientation and would just prefer to ignore "homophobia" as you liberals like to call it. If a Christian asks a favor of the homosexual, I doubt there would be an issue. If that same Christian asked him to print out an anti-homosexuality shirt, they will decline, as they have the right to. Now, you'll never see me going into a printer owned by homosexuals and demanding those shirts. Because that is wrong to do. But that doesn't stop homosexuals from targeting Christian businesses in hopes of getting their 15 minutes of fame and even lying.
briantheliberal says2015-04-03T20:45:32.3644164-05:00
Outside the church, or religious households, yes condemning people you don't like as evil, sinful or perverted is considered HATE SPEECH, and a form of bullying which is why most schools will suspend or expel students who use their religion to condemn other students. Saying "homosexuality is a sin" is not a "simple fact" and cannot be compared to some faulty statistic you clearly pulled out of your racist -ss to begin with. My overall point was this, if you are going to use your religion as an excuse to discriminate against gay people for whatever reason, then be prepared to also discriminate against EVERYONE who in some way violates your religious beliefs. This includes heterosexual couples who have been married before to someone else, and wants a cake for their second, or third wedding, an atheist, or Muslim heterosexual couple who is getting married and wants you to deliver flowers to their godless ceremony, photography for a Jewish boy's Bar Mitzvah. Stop picking an choosing who you want to stigmatize for your own convenience. -
Tonius5 says2015-04-03T21:52:23.4602745-05:00
Homosexuality: sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex. How is calling it a sin (Which it is, as sin is seen in religious laws and is different than something like a crime) hateful? Nobody is discriminating against anybody and using religion as an excuse. There exists no shop in America which does not serve homosexuals. Once again, as you seem to resemble two of the three wise monkeys (the two being the ones that cover their eyes and ears). The businesses serve homosexuals as regular customers, but will refuse to participate in the immoral and sinful event that the homosexual wants them to. If a straight man came up to the same shop and ordered a gay wedding cake for his friend who was getting married, they'd turn him down. It's not the PERSON. It's the PURPOSE. The comparisons to the other weddings scenarios are quite worthless and I will explain why: 1. How would a baker know that it's the customer's 3rd or 4th wedding if not told? If they were told, I have no doubts that they'd decline. 2. It doesn't matter what the religious views of the people getting married are. They are a heterosexual couple and are getting married. The interaction and servicing of people with other religious views is not condemned in the Bible at all. So basically everything you're saying is based off of ignorance, assumptions and false accusations. You arbitrarily calling me a racist when race has not even been mentioned with the exception of an example of truth that I gave earlier. You're not making yourself look credible by conducting yourself in the manner that you are. Disrespectful and counter productive.
briantheliberal says2015-04-04T00:54:37.5120262-05:00
Clearly you missed the point where I said it's circumstantial. You can spout your hate about homosexuals in the church or at home if you like, but in most public settings, don't be shocked when your anti-gay rhetoric is not taken lightly when you're condemning people you don't agree with. That's what makes it hate speech. Also, you're lying when you say people don't solely discriminate against gay people while hiding behind religion. The link I provided proves my point exactly. Most Christians who cry about "religious freedom" only want to be able to justify their discrimination against gay people while being immune to a lawsuit by hiding their homophobia behind their faith. Meanwhile, they don't hesitate to serve everyone else who violates their religious beliefs. "1. How would a baker know that it's the customer's 3rd or 4th wedding if not told?" - If they actually took their religious convictions seriously, they would ASK THEIR COSTUMERS to ensure themselves that they are not participating in a sinful act. "If they were told, I have no doubts that they'd decline." - I doubt it. You're lying to yourself. "2. It doesn't matter what the religious views of the people getting married are. They are a heterosexual couple and are getting married." - This is hypocrisy. If their marriage doesn't include the Christian god, who the Bible says must join them together, it is still considered sinful. The fact that they are the opposite sex doesn't somehow void the sinful act in question. A non-Christian couple getting married is no more valid than a same-sex couple getting married in the eyes of God, neither one follows his requirements for marriage, which include accepting god in the marriage in household. (Psalm 127:1) and (Proverbs 3:6). This is exactly what I am talking about when I say you Christians cherry pick what you want to believe when it's convenient for you. "The interaction and servicing of people with other religious views is not condemned in the Bible at all." - The interaction and servicing of gay people is not condemn in the Bible at all either. So again, you don't even know what you claim to believe and all these ad hominem attacks, distorting my points, use of circular logical and blatant denial doesn't somehow disprove anything I said. And stop acting oblivious. You know why I called you a racist. "Blacks in America have a 50% dropout rate." - Not only is this irrelevant, it's not even accurate. And lastly, you can stop sending your right wing propaganda as if they play any significant role in this discussion. If anyone is disrespectful and lack credibility, it's you.
Tonius5 says2015-04-04T08:01:06.6076910-05:00
Once again you seem to be going on about hate and discrimination and all those paramount words that seem to have devolved into catchphrases. You ignore the absolutely critical point that I am trying to make. It's about the purpose, not the person. You've not addressed this at all, while continuing to spout the same things that my point disproves. The article you linked to also supports my point as the florist claimed that she will not serve a same-sex couple -who are looking for arrangements for their union- (You seem to have skipped over that part). It's exactly the same as the woman from Memories Pizza. She'll happily serve anybody, but will not cater to a homosexual wedding. The florist isn't even a hypocrite, as serving an adulterer is not a sin. The adulterer has committed a sin, but is not intending to commit a sin with the service provided, unlike a homosexual couple that intends to get married. As marriage is a holy union between a man and woman, servicing a homosexual wedding will be willingly participating in a sinful event, which the florist or the shop owners do not want to do. Nothing is sinful about serving a gay couple under normal circumstances. A wedding is what crosses the line. That is something you seem to ignore. Basically you keep denying my points or flat out ignoring them and claiming that they're something else, no matter how much I try to address them. As for the statistics about the black dropout rate. It is indeed inaccurate, but not irrelevant. You claimed that calling homosexuality a sin (Which is a fact) is hate speech. So another fact is that the graduation rate of black males in 2008 was 47% according to the The Schott Foundation for Public Education. So is stating that fact considered hate speech? You certainly seemed to think so as you called me a racist. And you denying the links I provide, referring to them as right-wing propaganda just shows me that you're unwilling to challenge your position on the matter, similar to religious zealotry. So don't call me disrespectful when you yourself seem to have no respect towards opposing views and referring to my sources as propaganda.
Kreakin says2015-04-04T10:38:42.4958368-05:00
Twisting things to suit your needs isn't any sort of proof. Bigotry is bigotry plain and simple. I hope you are trolling a bit however, perhaps aprt of the "mask".. I get the feeling you are using religion as an excuse for your own homophobic feelings, what ever the route of them may be...
Kreakin says2015-04-04T10:42:05.4151344-05:00
..And nice vote bomb on the gay marriage poll, did you even read it really? I don't belive you did... Or would be able to vote Pro even if they clearly won. You are better off not voting if you can not be neautral, which is clear.
Kreakin says2015-04-04T10:46:57.4851323-05:00
I've reported it for you. I know on reflection you would have though "hey thats not fair I'm being homophobic" and reported it so I saved you the hassle.
Tonius5 says2015-04-04T10:58:05.6260700-05:00
Have you at all read what I have been saying? Nothing is getting twisted, nothing is being used as an excuse. I am disgusted by homosexuality, yet homosexuality is not who people are. It is a sexual preference. So everyone claiming that I hate homosexuals is beyond ignorant. Oh and you reported my vote on the Gay Marriage debate? Is it because you don't like it? I've read the debate, considered the arguments of both sides and made my decision based off of that. The fact that you assume that I voted the way I did because I am against gay marriage and reported it based off of that is absolutely childish. The fact that you would do something with such bias and lack of information leads me to believe that you have no place on this website.
Kreakin says2015-04-04T11:15:47.8512054-05:00
You don't think it influenced you to conduct your vote bomb then?
Tonius5 says2015-04-04T11:17:51.2768230-05:00
1. It's not a vote bomb (I am currently refining my reasoning in order to make it look less "vote-bombish" 2. I know it's hard to believe, but people have different views from you and different ways of interpreting debates and making legitimate decisions based on who you think won.
Kreakin says2015-04-04T11:27:53.6163006-05:00
If it's not a vote bomb then leave it as is lol And yes ofcourse people interpret things differently, some through the distorted lens of their convictions. That's why we have laws to stop them acting in an unreasonable way.
Tonius5 says2015-04-04T11:30:13.5621064-05:00
I changed my text so it can't be interpreted as a vote-bomb.

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