Should Indiana cave into the far left liberal agenda?

Posted by: Acejack21

Should Indiana give into the liberal left agenda? I mean there is nothing that was in the original bill that allowed any one to discriminate..

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19 Total Votes
1

No

12 votes
4 comments
2

Yes

7 votes
3 comments
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Stefy says2015-04-08T22:29:16.7968621-05:00
Yes. And its actually not that far left a view point. I think yours is just really far right. Theres no specific language in the bill fo allow duscrimination but law is more nuanced than that. 1) If there was no purpose to the bill other than to allow for religious freedom why was it drafted? Due to the supremacy clause that makes federal law and the constitution snove state law, they already have complete religious freedom no matter what and no state action or inaction could ever reduce it 2) It provides a legal defense for businesses to discriminate. If im gay guy who wants to get married and a baker recuses to serve me based on my being gay and i wanr to sue them for discimination or get them in any trouble at all for doing so, this law can now be used as a legal defense for their actions.
briantheliberal says2015-04-08T22:43:07.7772814-05:00
By "far left liberal agenda" I assume you mean rational human beings of the 21st century? Correct?
Vox_Veritas says2015-04-08T22:51:28.6212496-05:00
To call it the "Far Left Liberal Agenda", true or not, is a clear sign of bias. I'm sorry, but to prevent a poll from being biased certain things need to be avoided. Objectivity of the poll itself is key. Of course, I just say "biased poll" because I'm the guy who generally points it out when a biased poll appears, though it should be obvious to most people when it happens. It's almost customary by this point that I post "biased poll" on a poll like this.
TBR says2015-04-08T23:00:20.1966268-05:00
Thanks for being consistent Vox_Veritas. That is why my response was so snarky.
Varrack says2015-04-08T23:05:01.4516953-05:00
Let's face it: at least half of the polls on this site are biased. Bias is not something that you can get rid of; it's part of human nature. Knowing that, why should we continue to reduce potential conversation by criticizing people who are biased? We're all guilty of it, so after seeing so many of these polls I don't really see the point anymore in calling out bias whether it is slight or not.
TBR says2015-04-08T23:09:51.2704444-05:00
Varrack, some are just crazy over the top (cough - Genesis01[heilxx]). The wording says so much more about the author.
Varrack says2015-04-08T23:13:25.7975188-05:00
Well yes. Some people are dumb, and that's just a fact of life we all must deal with.
Acejack21 says2015-04-08T23:30:55.8133258-05:00
The law was drafted to protect the religions from being forced into medical plans that offer abortions and birth contol like Obamacare sets up for employers to offer these plans. It really has nothing to do with discrimination against any group of people I in fact actually read the bill in its entirety and it did not even come close to setting up discrimination. Stefy I am guessing the reason you couldn't find the language is because you failed to actually read and understand the bill?
m4j0rkus4n4g1 says2015-04-08T23:35:10.2132334-05:00
I agree with a lot of what I am reading in the comments section here. Not only is this poll disingenuous and biased in its wording, but it's worse than just one person trying to sway people to his opinion. What we have here is an actual debate in the making, but the bias of the question is drawing away from this. This user is also trying to start a debate on the topic, a debate which could be fruitful and help educate many viewers about the law and discrimination in the US. However, this user is putting his own opinion above the potential for us to have that talk. Don't encourage it.
Acejack21 says2015-04-08T23:46:05.3538343-05:00
M4j0rkus4n4g1 how am I trying to sway people to my opinion? People have the right to vote yes or no. Stating that it is "far left" is not biased. Name one thing of the far left agenda that is not radical? The movement tries to make everyone think and act like them, and when they do not they go into attack mode, which has more bias and hypocrisy in it than this poll. I mean look at "climate change" that's a far left agenda idea looking for more taxes. Redistribution of wealth, just look up the communist manifesto and you will get my point on a lot of this. It's not about individual freedoms, but more freedoms for the State!
Acejack21 says2015-04-09T00:00:18.4755279-05:00
Actually I can now see why everyone is calling my poll "biased". There is no one over 21 commenting here. Stating that, you at commenting based on what you have been told by your teachers.. That's okay. I highly recommend you actually go out and research for your self. Read books, and really understand what is going on in this country. Otherwise you will be just like everyone else. Educate your selves and don't depend on your teachers to do it for you. They have an agenda themselves. They depend on their unions, if they teach you "properly" you will go out and vote for people who are for their unions and for teachers making more money and taking from tax payers. Average teachers start out in this country making 30 grand a year not including incentives. Really, do your own research, learn the facts!
Stefy says2015-04-09T06:27:32.9616910-05:00
I have researched it myself. My teachers havent said jack about indianas religious freedom laws or any other partisan topic in any attemot to convince us. In fact about half my teachers are conservatives. And it actually is their job to educate us. Your basically trying to insult us by calling us educated i take that as a compliment and personally i dont need to discriminate against other people and i dont your condescending "advice".
Stefy says2015-04-09T06:30:41.3071329-05:00
Even though it is very good advice. Until i got myself into a good high school program, throughout middle school i had to rely largley on myself to learn things because of my biased hyper conservative teachers in the deep south who tried to convinve me that slavery wasnt a major cause of the civil war and that columbus never hurt anyone and that evolution didnt have a ton of basis in fact. Its what turned me liberal actually, self educating. So it is improtant.
TBR says2015-04-09T10:56:13.3743411-05:00
OK. Let’s break this apart a bit. M4j0rkus4n4g1 – “Stating that it is "far left" is not biased.” Not very truthful, as we have majority. That simply can’t be “far” by definition. | “Name one thing of the far left agenda that is not radical?” You are making the claim, and assuming the response in question form. How about YOU prove that. | “The movement tries to make everyone think and act like them” baseless assertion | “and when they do not they go into attack mode which has more bias and hypocrisy in it than this poll.” just argumentative. Look at your own posts. | “I mean look at "climate change" that's a far left agenda idea looking for more taxes.” Again, not when the majority accepts climate change. This also has a little baseless assertion for kicks. | “just look up the communist manifesto and you will get my point on a lot of this.” Idiotic rhetoric.
Acejack21 says2015-04-09T12:19:57.4449225-05:00
Those of us who believe that marriage is the exclusive, unalterable union of a man and woman were promised that all that the LGBT community wanted was equal treatment like everybody else. They advertised a “live and let live” mentality that would supposedly allow for difference in viewpoint. We were told a lie, many of which knew was a lie to begin with. As the LGBT activist wing reveals its true intentions, there can apparently be no grand bargain where religious conservatives who disagree, civilly, on important matters of sexuality can co-exist alongside gay persons who desire to live free lives as well. History reveals that when one group gains cultural favor over another, it typically overreaches, going to extremes to mercilessly subjugate their enemies to whatever table scraps are left over. That’s the phase we’re in now. In these circumstances, détente is discarded. Instead, embattlement and entrenchment passes on to the next generation. It is the activist wing of the LGBT community that has settled the terms of the current debate, pitting the gay community against religious conservatives, wishing to extract every last pound of flesh they can from who they view as their troglodytic oppressors. Religious conservatives don’t desire this. We want freedom for all. We desire magnanimity, tolerance, and compromise. That means, under reasonable standards, allowing all persons, religious or not, the freedom to live according to their sincerest convictions. It means instead of filing suit against a Christian florist, allowing for the free market to solve the problems of needing a floral arrangement for a gay wedding.
TBR says2015-04-09T12:57:09.4967976-05:00
@ Acejack21 – “Those of us who believe that marriage is the exclusive, unalterable union of a man and woman were promised that all that the LGBT community wanted was equal treatment like everybody else.” What of it? The attempt IS to provide equal treatment. | “They advertised a “live and let live” mentality that would supposedly allow for difference in viewpoint.” OK. Again, what of it. You get to be a jerk every day. Seems like you have your rights enacted. | “We were told a lie, many of which knew was a lie to begin with.” What is this big lie? Who promised YOU anything? Grow up. | “As the LGBT activist wing reveals its true intentions, there can apparently be no grand bargain where religious conservatives who disagree, civilly,” is this some joke? Is it civility to cling to laws intended to continue the status quo in discrimination? | “on important matters of sexuality can co-exist alongside gay persons who desire to live free lives as well.” That’s what the LGBT groups want. These laws attempt to subvert that. Get it? | “History reveals that when one group gains cultural favor over another, it typically overreaches, going to extremes to mercilessly subjugate their enemies to whatever table scraps are left over.” So, you are feeling the oppression others have felt, and don’t like it? | “That’s the phase we’re in now. In these circumstances, détente is discarded.” If you mean this law is “détente” easing of hostility… well you are obviously wrong. | “Instead, embattlement and entrenchment passes on to the next generation. It is the activist wing of the LGBT community that has settled the terms of the current debate, pitting the gay community against religious conservatives, wishing to extract every last pound of flesh they can from who they view as their troglodytic oppressors.” Lot of bu1lsh1t in this one. “Religious conservatives don’t desire this. We want freedom for all.” Prove that by rejecting this crap law | “We desire magnanimity, tolerance, and compromise.” Again, sounds like a joke to me. | “That means, under reasonable standards, allowing all persons, religious or not, the freedom to live according to their sincerest convictions.” YOU HAVE THIS!!! | “It means instead of filing suit against a Christian florist, allowing for the free market to solve the problems of needing a floral arrangement for a gay wedding.” This runs counter to the constitution. Check it out.
Acejack21 says2015-04-09T14:07:55.4699427-05:00
Tbr you accuse me of being a jerk, while you the one that is harassing me. I never came into your debate circle and started name calling. I am just stating fact which is backed up. You have no facts so your stance is truly invalid. As for the harassing and what not, continue if you will. It just further proves my point..
TBR says2015-04-09T14:11:06.1214262-05:00
Acejack21 - "you accuse me of being a jerk, while you the one that is harassing me." From the first post you have denigrated people | "I never came into your debate circle and started name calling." Did too (tongue out) | "I am just stating fact which is backed up." Where? Where have you backed ONE point?" | "You have no facts so your stance is truly invalid." Try me. I have offered to take your debate | "As for the harassing and what not, continue if you will. It just further proves my point.." Well.... Tongue is still out.
Acejack21 says2015-04-09T14:15:17.4714838-05:00
Ah yes I need to grow up... In a speech on December 10, 2013, to a pro-family rally in Jamaica, Brian Camenker of MassResistance outlined the step-by-step approach of the homosexual agenda:[1] legalize homosexuality promote gay pride parades demand non-discrimination laws insist on homosexuals' adoption of children push the homosexual agenda in schools force "gay marriage" on society demand public funding to deal with increased homosexual-related social problems promote the transgender agenda impose a large-scale loss of free speech
TBR says2015-04-09T14:17:18.2447199-05:00
Acejack21 - Where did your debate challenge go?
TBR says2015-04-09T14:19:23.9159031-05:00
Acejack21 - Did you REALLY just crib from Conservapedia? NOW... THAT... IS... FUNNY!!! Http://www.Conservapedia.Com/Homosexual_Agenda
Acejack21 says2015-04-09T14:28:47.1738438-05:00
Where is your proof that I "cribbed" on a site that I have never even heard of...
TBR says2015-04-09T14:33:23.1953628-05:00
Your text: In a speech on December 10, 2013, to a pro-family rally in Jamaica, Brian Camenker of MassResistance outlined the step-by-step approach of the homosexual agenda:[1] legalize homosexuality promote gay pride parades demand non-discrimination laws insist on homosexuals' adoption of children push the homosexual agenda in schools force "gay marriage" on society demand public funding to deal with increased homosexual-related social problems promote the transgender agenda impose a large-scale loss of free speech
TBR says2015-04-09T14:33:59.2498504-05:00
Text from Conservapedia In a speech on December 10, 2013, to a pro-family rally in Jamaica, Brian Camenker of MassResistanceoutlined the step-by-step approach of the homosexual agenda:[1] legalize homosexuality promote gay pride parades demand non-discrimination laws insist on homosexuals' adoption of children push the homosexual agenda in schools force "gay marriage" on society demand public funding to deal with increased homosexual-related social problems promote the transgender agenda impose a large-scale loss of free speech
TBR says2015-04-09T14:36:56.9419467-05:00
Your text even has the footnote marker.
Acejack21 says2015-04-09T14:45:37.5856478-05:00
Footnote marker? Now I am truly lost. Besides the fact it is an agenda none the less. And to think otherwise is pure ignorance.. I don't know if it's the fact that you are afraid of the truth, or are just ignorant to the fact of the truth. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt because you seem like a decent person outside of the interwebs that you are just afraid of the truth, so you agree with everyone else that is likeminded like yourself.
TBR says2015-04-09T14:48:51.7694728-05:00
"Footnote marker? Now I am truly lost. " the think that denote a footnote | "Besides the fact it is an agenda none the less." It is. It is the words of a 'far right anti LGBT' activist. | "And to think otherwise is pure ignorance.." Whose? | "I don't know if it's the fact that you are afraid of the truth, or are just ignorant to the fact of the truth." I still ask where the debate went. | "I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt because you seem like a decent person outside of the interwebs" You don't know me outside of this SITE.
TBR says2015-04-09T14:52:42.2032482-05:00
"the think " ="the thing. This is a common way to show a footnote [1]. Used in context. Acejack21 has finally found this "agenda". It is the strawman agenda of Brian Camenker[1]. [1]http://www.Conservapedia.Com/Homosexual_Agenda
Acejack21 says2015-04-09T14:58:28.8284040-05:00
So since I do not know you outside of this site, you agree that you are ignorant? Are you claiming to be an idiot. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.
TBR says2015-04-09T15:00:43.2709645-05:00
"So since I do not know you outside of this site, you agree that you are ignorant? " Strawman - You said "decent person" | "Are you claiming to be an idiot." Strawman 2 | "I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt." So what?
TBR says2015-04-09T15:01:52.1137645-05:00
You cant seem to keep your own nonsense straight.
TBR says2015-04-09T15:04:41.6203284-05:00
Want a quick look back at your baseless assertion?
TBR says2015-04-09T15:04:46.1756744-05:00
Want a quick look back at your baseless assertion?
TBR says2015-04-09T15:05:06.3018179-05:00
Unsubstantiated – “I mean there is nothing that was in the original bill that allowed any one to discriminate..”
TBR says2015-04-09T15:05:21.6084103-05:00
Unsubstantiated – “The law was drafted to protect the religions from being forced into medical plans that offer abortions and birth contol like Obamacare sets up for employers to offer these plans.”
TBR says2015-04-09T15:05:34.3238179-05:00
Unsubstantiated – “It really has nothing to do with discrimination against any group of people I in fact actually read the bill in its entirety and it did not even come close to setting up discrimination.”
TBR says2015-04-09T15:05:58.8731439-05:00
Unsubstantiated – “Name one thing of the far left agenda that is not radical? The movement tries to make everyone think and act like them, and when they do not they go into attack mode, which has more bias and hypocrisy in it than this poll.”
TBR says2015-04-09T15:06:30.2264100-05:00
Pick ONE and back it!
TBR says2015-04-09T15:12:48.0558979-05:00
This isn't conservative talk radio. You don't just call in to echo the sentiments of the host and audience and wait for your free bumper-sticker. Make a case!
Acejack21 says2015-04-09T15:13:02.2673157-05:00
Go ahead pick one, I dare ya! You are just further proving my point the extreme liberals have to push and push until they get their way. For that you do not deserve my further attention, as you are striving for it, and practically begging for it. And for that I wish you a good day, unless you have something logical to say or something that gives a good debate and not just being a hate mongerer..
TBR says2015-04-09T15:15:07.6209982-05:00
This one. Unsubstantiated – “I mean there is nothing that was in the original bill that allowed any one to discriminate..”. How about that. We can debate it.
Acejack21 says2015-04-09T15:19:15.9435587-05:00
Well there was nothing in the original bill, prove to me that there was and I will humbly back down, and declare you a victor. Hi light the section that clearly discriminates against the gay community.
Acejack21 says2015-04-09T15:25:08.7457665-05:00
Religious freedom restoration. Prohibits a governmental entity from substantially burdening a person's exercise of religion, even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability, unless the governmental entity can demonstrate that the burden: (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering the compelling governmental interest. Provides a procedure for remedying a violation. Specifies that the religious freedom law applies to the implementation or application of a law regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity or official is a party to a proceeding implementing or applying the law. Prohibits an applicant, employee, or former employee from pursuing certain causes of action against a private employer. There is a copy of the main part of the law.
TBR says2015-04-09T15:32:14.0017189-05:00
This is a link to the full text.
TBR says2015-04-09T15:32:19.1258898-05:00
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/27/text-indianas-religious-freedom-law/70539772/
Acejack21 says2015-04-09T15:36:03.0283839-05:00
What specific section should I be looking at?
TBR says2015-04-09T15:36:28.7522892-05:00
The law does two unusual things. Following Hobby Lobby it treats the corporation and LLC as persons with religious faiths. It further allows "protection" from litigation from suits based on discriminatory practices of the corporation, LLC or person. If I, as and individual, am denied services of a LLC Corporation who is doing so based on their religious beliefs, I can use this law as a defense of that suit. In effect, individuals have been removed redress with the courts for discrimination. Get it?
TBR says2015-04-09T15:37:25.1114946-05:00
I have offered the full debate, and I will accept.
TBR says2015-04-09T15:48:02.4023270-05:00
This part setups the corporation or LLC as synonyms with "person"
TBR says2015-04-09T15:48:11.4984186-05:00
Sec. 7. As used in this chapter, "person" includes the following: (1) An individual. (2) An organization, a religious society, a church, a body of communicants, or a group organized and operated primarily for religious purposes. (3) A partnership, a limited liability company, a corporation, a company, a firm, a society, a joint-stock company, an unincorporated association, or another entity that: (A) may sue and be sued; and (B) exercises practices that are compelled or limited by a system of religious belief held by: (i) an individual; or (ii) the individuals; who have control and substantial ownership of the entity, regardless of whether the entity is organized and operated for profit or nonprofit purposes.
TBR says2015-04-09T15:49:42.4026264-05:00
This is unique from the federal RFRA, and every state other than Texas.
TBR says2015-04-09T15:50:28.8585330-05:00
So, the Indiana RFRA recognizes that a for-profit corporation has “free exercise” rights matching those of individuals or churches.
TBR says2015-04-09T15:51:53.7053013-05:00
Then - The law makes a business “free exercise” right a defense against a private lawsuit by another person. This is DIFFERENT THAN simply against actions brought by government.
TBR says2015-04-09T15:55:13.4438601-05:00
So, the bill allows a corporation (behaving like an individual) LEGAL DEFENSE from individuals attempting to use the redress of the courts courts in cases of discrimination.
TBR says2015-04-09T15:55:59.2913784-05:00
"I mean there is nothing that was in the original bill that allowed any one to discriminate.." The resolution has been defeated. QED
TBR says2015-04-09T16:26:33.8073235-05:00
Acejack21 - Where did you go? Crickets...

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