Should the U.S. have located and burned all opium poppy fields in Afghanistan from 2001 to 2014?

Posted by: Vox_Veritas

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Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T01:55:02.1167062Z
Fun fact: Afghanistan produces about 90% of the world's heroin.
Pigzooka says2015-11-24T02:01:56.5393021Z
Fun fact: lives and jobs (not those of the Taliban) depend on that dope.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:04:54.4912978Z
3.3 million, if I'm not mistaken. However, wouldn't there only be 10% as much heroin available in the world if we did this?
Pigzooka says2015-11-24T02:09:02.1513738Z
Yeah, except the Taliban wouldn't just give up and go home. And the stream of Islamic refugees, attempting to reach the US, would be met by bigotry and resistance, and would be forced to stay in Afghanistan, where the Taliban would be them plant more opium. If you think an unwinnable campaign of burning, waiting, and burning again is worth the cost to the American wallet, go for it. Keep in mind that the ONLY job in some parts of Afghanistan is poppy growing.
TBR says2015-11-24T02:12:30.0824409Z
Should we burn Pfizer factories down because of Oxycodone abuse? How about we destroy Tennessee. Lots of alcoholics use whiskey.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:14:48.2387158Z
Whenever people realize that poppy growing is not a profitable source (that is, their year's investment is completely wasted because U.S. forces destroyed it) of income they'll start growing other stuff instead. Most of the negative repercussions of this would be short-term. Locating and burning crops is a fraction as expensive as fighting a counter-insurgency, so yes the U.S. could afford to do it as many times as it'd take. The money saved in terms of worker productivity and medical expenses would probably make it worth it economically.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:16:29.6450654Z
False analogy. I never said that we should destroy Afghanistan. Only the poppy fields in Afghanistan, virtually all of it being sold to the black markets if I'm not mistaken.
TBR says2015-11-24T02:17:53.6014804Z
Why do you think we (as users of the product) have any right to destroy their crop? We don't own the damn world.
TBR says2015-11-24T02:20:18.6842704Z
OK. So we destroy the manufacturing line and intellectual property of the drug company. We destroy all the casks in Lynchburg. Look. We don't get to tell everyone what to do in THEIR countries just because we have more guns.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:22:41.9574256Z
Their drugs are destroying the lives of millions of our people. So yes, I think we should have a say in this.
TBR says2015-11-24T02:27:00.6389189Z
We should work on our own drug problem, not go messing with other sovereign countries. Aren't you a conservative? Where is the personal responsibility? The problem with drugs of our own people is our problem. We don't have a right to tell other people how to structure their laws. Now. There are many other problems with your "burn it all" plan, but who cares? It's so far out that we get to do whatever we like just because we can invade on a whim.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:27:53.2926127Z
If we want to be humane about this we can warn the Afghan people 15 months ahead of time, giving them enough time to to safely transition to a profession that isn't drug-related.
TBR says2015-11-24T02:31:30.9791989Z
@Vox_Veritas - There are places where Heroin is perfectly legal. There is nowhere I am aware of in the US where you can't grow poppies. It's ludicrous to think we can destroy other people's property because of a domestic problem we have.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:31:38.0305345Z
I could say likewise; as a Liberal, aren't you supposed to believe that we should protect our people from the influence of horrific drugs? People are obviously better off if they never have the option to use heroin. That much isn't easy to dispute. We can and are cracking down on illicit drugs at home, but the War on Drugs would be most effective if we could strike at the root of the problem (which is the foreign opium poppy farms).
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:33:15.6572119Z
Name one place where heroin is completely legal.
TBR says2015-11-24T02:39:12.3898245Z
List of countries where you can get a prescription :
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:43:41.5412479Z
It may have limited use as a painkiller or something, but its primary use is in the black market for recreational purposes. There are probably equally effective alternatives out there for medicinal purposes.
TBR says2015-11-24T02:47:32.0234300Z
"I could say likewise; as a Liberal, aren't you supposed to believe that we should protect our people from the influence of horrific drugs?" - Sure... Not by messing with a country we have no rights over. Work on helping our people who have problems with addiction. || "People are obviously better off if they never have the option to use heroin." Who says? The drug is not necessarily a problem, abuse of it is the problem. || "That much isn't easy to dispute." Well, I do dispute that || "We can and are cracking down on illicit drugs at home, but the War on Drugs would be most effective if we could strike at the root of the problem (which is the foreign opium poppy farms)." The war on drugs is a complete joke. We lost. People want and will use drugs. It is even more silly than a war on terror.
TBR says2015-11-24T02:49:57.7888956Z
For how long do you want to continue this "burn it all" policy? Do you want to salt the earth too? Want to occupy all countries where drugs are grown, and destroy all crops of indigenous farmers? What on earth gives us the right to anything like this?
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:50:09.1456228Z
You can't use heroin if there isn't any to use.
TBR says2015-11-24T02:52:20.2627823Z
Think opiate addicts will magically stop being adicts? Know what Krokodil is?
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:52:46.2366158Z
Simply waiting for people to become addicted and then spending thousands to rehabilitate them and providing for their healthcare is the definition of insanity. Crack down on the producers of heroin. Their production affects us so we have every right to get involved.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:54:42.0502734Z
Krokodil comes from opium poppies, so your point about that is moot.
TBR says2015-11-24T02:57:20.7636560Z
1) You can make Krokodi with codeine (no poppy needed - go blame pharma). 2) You have yet to address under what right we destroy the farms of another country because of OUR problem.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T02:59:48.1827110Z
You're forgetting that they are causing our problem.
TBR says2015-11-24T03:02:36.2092339Z
They are causing our problem? Please... I ask again. Where is the personal responsibility. They are growing a flower. Answer the questions I have posted or I am done.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T03:02:36.4120326Z
I'm not saying that this will solve our drug problem. But it'll definitely help.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T03:04:05.5498612Z
By your logic dealers aren't doing anything wrong because somebody else chose to buy.
TBR says2015-11-24T03:04:52.2715617Z
1) For how long do you want to continue this "burn it all" policy? 2) Do you want to salt the earth too? 3) Want to occupy all countries where drugs are grown, and destroy all crops of indigenous farmers? 4) What on earth gives us the right to anything like this?
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T03:11:14.2975128Z
1) As long as it takes. It shouldn't be all that expensive to do, so we potentially could keep it up indefinitely. 2) No, I do not want to salt the earth's soil. Then no crops could be grown. 3) Not unless they refused to allow the U.S. to step in and destroy such crops, and that you're even claiming that I suggested we destroy all crops of "indigenous farmers" is an affront to all things intelligent and logical 4) I've already given reason several times as to why we have a right to do this. What they're doing affects us in a pretty massive way. All they have to do differently is grow some other crop. Just about any other crop would suffice. That they're growing this crop anyway means they accept full responsibility for whatever consequences and foreign intervention their actions cause.
TBR says2015-11-24T03:15:34.5662444Z
@Vox_Veritas - I mean this is the nicest possible way. You are what is wrong with America. We don't have the right to tell everyone in the world how to live their lives or countries. We don't have the right to occupy and destroy parts of a country "for as long as necessary" because some of OUR people abuse a drug. This attitude is a huge part of the problem with America. We are NOT the final word on the affairs of everyone just because of firepower.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T03:20:24.1939878Z
I would say that you are what is wrong with this country, but that is completely beside the point. This conversation isn't going anywhere because we seem to have a different opinion as to whether or not the choice of using illegal drugs should be present and as such both of us are making polar opposite assumptions when arguing this.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T03:22:43.6726937Z
Also, "destroying part of a country" and "burning a field" are technically the same thing but your context in using the former language is to make it look a lot worse than it is.
TBR says2015-11-24T03:26:18.8733142Z
OK. Let's talk about "making it look worse". Just looked it up. There are about 620,000 users in the US. That is ~.18% of the population. Some percentage have a addiction issue with the drug. Your solution to this minor problem is to invade and occupy a country indefinitely destroying farms of flowers. Further, aside from having no right to do this, it has little hope of fixing the problem you want to address. As I said, there are other drugs addicts move to. So.... Yea, this is a terrible plan.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T03:35:19.0198517Z
1) 620,000 people is the population of Montenegro, I should add. 2) From 2001 to 2014 we were already pretty much in charge of the country so another invasion of it wouldn't have been necessary. Had it been done even at this present day there's no indication that the Afghan government would resist using military force. I didn't propose permanent occupation but rather permanently stepping in when needed to destroy opium poppy fields (this all assumes, of course, that the Afghan military wouldn't eventually take up this job to get the U.S. out of the country). You also fail to mention that the U.S. isn't the only country grappling with heroin addiction, so the impact on the War on drugs would be bigger than you're assuming. The U.S. is in a superpower position and as such we have the power to intervene to cure both ourselves and other nations from the epidemics of drugs such as heroin and cocaine. Afghanistan would be just one part of it.
TBR says2015-11-24T03:38:26.4184174Z
This bit might interest you. 5,927 people died of heroin use in 2012. ~10,000 children shot. Want to send the army into every gun manufacture and destroy the means to produce more guns?
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T03:41:02.6076492Z
I was wondering when you would bring that up...Let me reverse this, though: you believe that people should be allowed to use illegal drugs but guns should be banned?
TBR says2015-11-24T03:42:50.9489547Z
No I don't think guns should be banned. I also don't think we should invade, occupy and burn the crops of another country in the vain attempt to address a drug problem in our own country.
TBR says2015-11-24T03:43:57.7633264Z
Now answer the question. Do YOU think we should send the army into gun manufactures and destroy their property to keep them from producing more guns?
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T03:44:59.8891840Z
Ending heroin would also help reduce the transmission of HIV in 3rd world countries, where this virus and other viruses are able to spread rapidly due to junkies sharing needles. Pakistan has over 6 million drug addicts, with cannabis being the most commonly abused drug and opiates such as heroin coming in second. The increased heroin usage has been attributed to the rise in HIV cases in the country.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T03:49:17.0913301Z
Guns are not used almost solely to murderl other people. They have self-defense purposes (if you're a 120 pound normal college girl and you're being charged by 160 pounds of sheer muscle intent on raping you a gun would drastically increase your chances of survival), hunting (a very popular recreational activity), and even the occasional deterrent for invasion (the Japanese wouldn't invade America because of the many guns). So no.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T03:50:08.9935282Z
*increased HIV cases attributed to increased heroin usage
TBR says2015-11-24T04:20:24.8216473Z
Tell you what Vox_Veritas. We will get on this "burn the poppies" idea right after we send the Army into North Carolina with big truck loads of flammables and orders to burn all the tobacco fields. Forget about the North Carolina's their product is a problem.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T04:44:20.4657038Z
Will a cigarette do THIS? Http://i.Ytimg.Com/vi/SxFg5xsZY34/maxresdefault.Jpg
TBR says2015-11-24T04:49:08.2179889Z
Your link is broken, but how about the CDC "Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including nearly 42,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day.1". Soooo...... At about 80x more deadly than Heroin, and right there - in our own country - we could start the fires up tomorrow. Wouldn't cost much.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T05:46:20.2215877Z
That's essentially a red herring. I'd like to get rid of cigarettes as well. But heroin is like the devil in the way that it ruins lives. A cigarette smoker's life won't get anywhere near that level of ruined. Really, all it costs you is around 12 years of your life. You'd still live to be 60 and if you kick the habit before 40 (and it is much easier to quit smoking, I can assure you) your risk of an early death brought on by smoking is reduced by as much as 90%.
Vox_Veritas says2015-11-24T05:49:37.7213857Z
In fact, you could die from your first heroin dose.
stargate says2015-11-24T13:47:50.5639723Z
Well do not burn it, but heavily encourage a change in the crops. Now if the new Afghanistan goverment that we set up gave us promission then why not, take out the drug trade there.
Pigzooka says2015-11-24T16:05:59.5552374Z
The thing is, the Taliban shoots farmers who won't grow opium poppies. It's not their choice, it's the Taliban's. So trying to convince the farmers does nothing, and the Taliban doesn't care if a few fields are burned every year.

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