@TBR - government agencies are using faulty methodologies and bad models when they issue such reports that instantly garner headlines, which gives rise to individuals like yourself happening upon the story while not knowing the issue. On this specific issue, after criticism, the GAO was forced to revise their 12.6% to 22.9% and that's a major correction.
@Renegader - so you're an anarchist (and supposedly support the Libertarian Party), which implies you favor no form of government but on the issue of the corporate tax rate in the United States you favor only reducing it to 30 percent? You would think that at the very least I could get you on board with the European average of 18.6 percent. Or how about at least the Chinese rate of 25 percent?
@tajshar2k - this is precisely my problem. TBR offered a link claiming the effective rate is lower than the actual rate but if you bothered with my rebuttal I explained that the models used to make these assertions are baseless and specifically the GAO report to which he refers was forced to issue a correction whereby they nearly doubled on their previous rate. Despite this information, you seem to double down on the contention. My view you shouldn't take corporations on income they're not spending on salaries or dividends. That's the money they use to make capital investments rather than having Obama "create" 2,298 jobs at a cost of $11.45 million per job.
@DavidMGold - Let me cut to the chase. There was no retraction of the GAO number. There was another calculation that went as far as it could to get to the higher number. Regardless, assumptions you make :"individuals like yourself happening upon the story while not knowing the issue." are even more baseless than what you are trying to prove.
@TBR - Let's be clear here, the GAO did revise there 12.6% upward to nearly 23% and the methodology and model have been discredited in numerous ways. The Congressional Research Services did a study a year later and they found a 27.1% rate. As my link shows, using the GAO's own data, by expanding from 2010 alone to 2008-2010 with foreign taxes included put it at a 30.3% rate. Taken from 2004-2010 it becomes even larger at a 37.1% rate. According to the World Bank, the U.S. has the second highest effective corporate tax rate in the world. The only thing baseless at this point is your contention and your followup.
@DavidMGold - You started being dismissive and pompous, now you are just deceiving. The article as you note, shows how to get to the higher number, that is all. They extended to as many years as they had IRS data, included all corporations (the GAO study was about t taxes paid by profitable U.S. corporations with at least $10 million in assets.) and most interestingly, included all taxes paid to foreign governments. Talk about stacking the deck. The number stands.
In the mind of a Regressive it should be increased because you see they don't believe in Capitalism yet their twisted mind wants to raise minimum wage to $15.00 dollars an hour. The HYPOCRISY is just beyond belief !
@TBR - I started by pointing out you're just plain wrong and tried to point out the ways you're deceiving yourself. I have no alternative other than being dismissive of your fallacious assertions. I've already shown that with the GAO's own data, if you look beyond the single year of 2010, you get much higher rates or you can look at other studies but you seem interested in touting a bogus figure to favor your position that the U.S. corporate tax rate should remain unchanged. Also, the GAO study DID NOT take into account MOST foreign taxes. That's absolutely false. The "numbers" only "stand" to the extent that your incalcitrant political position requires them.
@DavidMGold - This is not one of thoses "well we each have a point" sort of thing. You said something - saying my GAO source was revised - you can not show where it was, only where a different set of calculations with different standards came back with another number. The authors of your study ran the same GAO numbers, and confirmed them (look at your link). Then they went about rigging it to their desire (foreign taxes and increasing the poll to all US corporations). The point of the GAO study that is accurate ( Q.E.D ) shows that major corporations are paying ~12.6% in US taxes. Nothing provided contradicts that fact.
@TBR - "This is not one of thoses "well we each have a point" sort of thing." Damn right, you've been absolutely wrong, using a study that from 2013 that focused only on a single year (2010) with numbers that have since been revised and using their numbers by expanding the number of years, you get a significantly higher rate. Virtually every study on the matter shows a much higher effective corporate tax rate. The author DID NOT confirm the numbers and you're engaging in a complete distortion of a study that I have absolute confidence you didn't attempt reading through. As for the accusations of "rigging," quite the contrary, he demonstrated how the GAO erroneously conjured up a 12.6% rate (and didn't you just falsely claim the GAO did include all foreign taxes? Oops!). And amazingly you find fault with a thorough methodology (all U.S. corporations) as opposed to narrowing the window! The GAO study as well as the 12.6% rate has been refuted and discredited with a more accurate 36.2% rate (Q.E.D.). Moreover, your political research is lazy, shoddy, and at odds with reality but considering your choice for President I'm not at all surprised.
@OFT60, Sorry, I was distracting myself with you while I waited for a half bright conservative to get back. A little like a well fed cat with a mouse, you were fun, but your part of this discussion is done now. DavidMGold - What you take issue with is the very purpose of the study. It is not to show how much tax all US corporations pay, it is to show what the largest most profitable corporations are paying in tax - US TAX! What it show, that you still have not been able to counter, is that the number is ~12.6%! Do you 1) Get that and 2) Still argue the the initial 12.6% was inaccurate? Again, your own link proves it IS correct - the GAO report (confirmed by your link) shows the results were accurate.
@DavidMGold - Let's try to move the conversation forward this way. The GAO report was on corporations that should have ALL been in the ~35% (the actual top FED corporate tax) + whatever for state taxes. They WERE at 12.6%, but even if you wanted to use your number, they are STILL getting out of a huge amount of taxes, right? Look, corporations (like the one I struggle to keep going) are paying HIGHER rates than GE. Think that is fair? Does that sound like a "conservative value"?
It should be lowered to zero percent.Doing so would cause several corporations to bring their corporate offices and manufacturing to the United States and not only dramatically reduce unemployment, but also bring in a ton of high paying jobs as well. It would also stop double taxing retirees who need their income from stock to survive.
I also agree with eliminating corporate welfare as well. Though just outright eliminating farm subsidies would literally kill people. So some planning would need to take place to remove it without overly effecting the price of food.
@Wylted - A huge part of "corporate welfare" is tax breaks. Look, despite my arguing above (an argument to establish the validity of the issue) I am not totally opposed to smart plans to encourage business. The best place to start though would be in not demanding MORE under the false premise that corporate taxes are too high, or the highest in the world. The real number puts American corporations (large) outside of the top ten, and smaller corporations (what I am trying to do) stuck subsidising them.
@TBR - I take issue with the fact that you're entire position is based on an effective corporate tax rate of 12.6% that has been proven to be erroneous based on 1) it fails to take into account most foreign taxes and 2) the GAO failed to properly adjust for net operating losses carried forward from the financial crisis. Taking this into account, the GAO calculation nearly doubles to 23% and that's a lot closer to what every other study has shown. You're unable to understand that in the U.S., using the exact model, all U.S. corporations (2004-2010) have an average effective tax rate of 35% and you fail to come to terms with that reality. Even if we only look at corporations with a positive taxable income, from 2008-2010, you're still at 30.3% and you cannot base your entire position on one study for only one year of only some corporations while excluding data to deflate the rate. My link DOES NOT confirm the GAO study, quite the contrary, and you are misrepresenting it. "...Timing differences between book income and taxable income can make a single year’s analysis unrepresentative of the actual long-term effective tax rates of corporations. Further, the asymmetric treatment of companies with financial statement losses — omitting them in years in which they experience financial statement losses but including them in a year in which the related tax benefit from the loss is received — also can result in unrepresentative calculations of the average effective tax rate faced by U.S. corporations over the period." Also, "...The analysis indicates that inclusion of other foreign taxes that were omitted from the GAO analysis results in higher corporate effective tax rates than reported by the GAO." Finally, on the larger issue of the Federal Tax Code, I favor comprehensive tax reform and as far as GE is concerned, you should redirect concerns to Barack Obama and his friend, Jeffrey Immelt.
@TBR - I would suggest you broaden yourself a bit by looking at other studies, "Paying Taxes 2013: The Global Picture" (World Bank), "U.S. Corporations Suffer High Effective Tax Rates by International Standards" (Tax Foundation), "International Corporate Tax Rate Comparisons and Policy Implications.” (Congressional Research Service), "“Report Card on Effective Corporate Tax Rates” (AEI), and "Another Look at Corporate Effective Tax Rates 2004-2010" (ACT).
Now you want to enormously state they are paying the 35%. Enough already. We are not discussing how much a is corporation paid in forging taxes, that is just a ruse. If you want to move off that point, I have offered ground. The 22.9 is still very low when compared to the world. The entire premiums of 'lower the us rate' is based on the very false idea that us corporations are PAYING the 35%. Nothing you nor I have shown shows that. Make the us corps pay the tax to start with, that is the solution, not bickering about how much they may be paying to forging governments.
@TBR - Let's be clear here because I provided the link that explained the flaws of your own study and how by widening the window beyond a SINGLE YEAR you get a 35% effect corporate tax rate. You simply dislike the data because it doesn't fit your political agenda. Speaking of the world, Europe has the lowest average rate (18.6%). You're relying on what has already been shown to be a fallacious study and you're just now acknowledging the revised figure of (22.9%) while stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that looking beyond 2010 we find U.S. corporations paying a much higher rate. I've offered you several other studies on this subject as well. Let's talk about eliminating the tax to provide a huge incentive for corporations to do business in the United States as opposed to becoming uncompetitive on this to the point where the U.S. having the third highest marginal corporate income tax rate in the entire world. Finally, to be clear again, no one is bickering about about how much corporations pay (this isn't a maybe, they pay) taxes to foreign businesses to do business in their country in a global economy. The GAO failed to take most of that into account in their skewed study.
U.S corporate tax rate is one of the highest in the world. Companies don't even bother paying these. It simply finds loopholes in our tax code, and avoids paying billions. We should lower it at least by 9%.