Should vaccines be mandatory?

Posted by: NewLifeChristian

The definition of "vaccine", according to Google, is, "a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease."

  • Yes, vaccines should be mandatory.

  • No, vaccines should not be mandatory.

57% 33 votes
43% 25 votes
  • it's selfish to not vaccinate your putting everyone's lives at risk

  • Due to herd immunity, vaccination is a health issue, not an individual issue.

  • Vaccines are most effective if the population is vaccinated. A vaccinated population has a higher quality of life than a population without vaccinations. It then follows that the more people that are vaccinated in a population, the higher the quality of life will be. A government needs to look out for the quality of life for all the people, and that means that vaccines should be required.

    Posted by: SNP1
  • If we don't all use vaccines, the vaccines will be invalidated when the pathogen mutates, and people will DIE if they aren't vaccinated, because of some lie on the internet. Many people, even in rich countries, die of the "most harmless" diseases, like the common cold, influenza, rotovirus, and unknown pathogens we think nothing of, like a stomach ache. Humans spread rotovirus and gastroenteritis, which kills livestock, increasing the cost of meat. If we all vaccinate, the cost of meat will decrease. Cool, huh?

  • This idea of a "right to choose" in this case is ridiculous. You dont have the right to choose to murder someone, you dont have the right to choose not to pay taxes, you dont have the right to choose to not go to school.

    Posted by: bhakun
  • You're putting your child and many others in danger when you don't vaccinate for an complete lie of a "theory".

  • Just saying, but the pictures shown are biased.

  • Excluding those with compromised immune systems or who are allergic to the ingredients, people should be forced to be vaccinated, at least if they are going to work in the public sector or attend public schools and institutions.

  • People have the right to not be jabbed in the arm. The government has no place to force us to receive vaccinations.

  • Personally, I believe in vaccinations for certain diseases. However, that belief should not be forced on people.

  • People use the word "should" far too often when phrasing their questions. No, no one "should" have to get a vaccine, as a duty or obligation. However, if they don't want to die from whatever disease it is the vaccine protects them from or lower their chances of dying from the disease, they should get the vaccine. Is it a duty or obligation to make vaccines mandatory? No.

  • Mandatory for public school attendance? Yes, absolutely. But taking away kids who haven't been vaccinated? That's ridiculous. If a kid isn't in a public school, then the government shouldn't mandate that they be vaccinated.

  • fuck that people should have a choice

  • No government should force you to vaccinate. Especially considering that there is less than a 5% chance that it will be effective. They've shown to do more harm than good.

  • Some people have SERIOUS reactions to vaccines. Its unfair to force them to get vaccinated. Let it be a choice.

    Posted by: Dilara
  • People have the right to chose their medical procedures.

  • No, I am a Libertarian.

  • Vaccines can, have and do cause harm. If they did not, then the VICP would not have paid out over 3 billion dollars to vaccine injured children. If a medical procedure carries with it risk, then there must be personal choice. It is never right to mandate a medical procedure that carries with it risk onto someone for the "safety" of another. Never. If you believe otherwise, then you are the enemy of free man everywhere.

  • That is like the seat belt law. Wearing a seat belt will not harm anyone but me, so why do I have to wear one? What gives the government the right to tell me how I have to keep myself safe? With vaccines, it virtually the same idea. Every time I get a vaccine, I just get sicker and more often than when I don't. I don't need the flippin' higher-ups telling me what I can and can't do concerning my health!

  • Educated people believe in the right to choose.

  • It's pretty funny how the no side has more comments than the other yet less votes. It just goes to show how idiotic the ones who want to make it mandatory. We have the right to not get jabbed in the arm with toxins.

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58539672 says2016-02-22T22:40:18.6335511Z
*public health issue
SNP1 says2016-02-23T00:09:48.9394369Z
I do think that people without up to date vaccines should not be allowed in places of massive public (public schools for example) due to the health determent to everyone around you if you are not vaccinated, though this also requires vaccines to be free.
NewLifeChristian says2016-02-23T21:15:21.1090919Z
This is disgusting. 50% actually want vaccines to be mandatory? I hope some of you are joking . . . People have the right to refuse vaccination. If I don't want to get a vaccine, there is no way the government is going to make me get one. Also, it's not selfish not to vaccinate. And you're not putting everyone's lives at risk, because if you are vaccinated you cannot get the disease from them.
58539672 says2016-02-23T21:59:21.0406004Z
@NewLifeChristian Do you know what herd immunity is? Not getting a vaccine is selfish and is putting other people at risk. And if it is classified as a public health issue, the government can force you to get one (similar to how everyone is required to where a seat belt. You can break the law all you want, but you will be punished if caught).
58539672 says2016-02-23T22:07:44.9162742Z
@Dilara the vast majority of side effects to vaccinations include redness, a rash, soreness, and a fever. Serious side effects are exceptionally rare and often occur in people with weak immune systems. The effects of the illnesses they prevent range from any number of debilitating issues to death. Not enforcing a policy because of a significantly small minority is unjust to the majority, so an exception should be made for those with weak immune systems rather than not have the program at all. i.e. "Everyone gets vaccinated unless you are at risk".
58539672 says2016-02-23T22:13:16.1751678Z
@Sgt4Liberty Most childhood vaccines have an effectiveness in the 90%-100% range. Or look at the number of cases of any illness drop off after a vaccine is invented to see how well they work (measles, small pox, polio, etc.).
SNP1 says2016-02-23T22:46:28.3930490Z
I swear, people don't understand herd immunity...
Texas14 says2016-02-24T01:47:56.5518254Z
I like how liberals are pro choice until this issue.
NewLifeChristian says2016-02-24T13:15:00.1804745Z
@Texas14 Exactly. Liberals are extremely hypocritical when it comes to issues like this.
NewLifeChristian says2016-02-24T13:17:33.3764025Z
@58539672 Yes, I am aware of herd immunity, but those who cannot receive vaccinations can simply stay home with their vaccinated family. Also, you're seat belt analogy is awful. You don't inject seat belts into your body.
58539672 says2016-02-24T16:19:03.4240475Z
@NewLifeChristian So, your solution is that unvaccinated people never leave the safety of their own home? Great solution! While were at it, why not just lock them up (for their own protection of course). The seat belt analogy was meant to inform you on what a public health issue is, since thus far you seem completely unaware of it, so I chose one of the simplest I could to explain it to you. The premise is simply. The government can take away your individual right to do something (like not wearing a seatbelt or not getting a vaccine) if it benefits the common good of the community.
snkcake666 says2016-02-24T18:18:52.8047657Z
@Bkhan Taxes are theft and school is state mandated indoctrination. Go on?
NewLifeChristian says2016-02-25T21:16:14.7961535Z
@58539672 Listen pal, there's no other way it'll work. The government can't just force everyone to get a shot, and we cannot have people who can't be vaccinated go out in public, so that's our only option . . . And no, nobody is suggesting we quarantine individuals who can't be vaccinated.
NewLifeChristian says2016-02-25T21:18:30.9408443Z
@bhakun We don't have the right to choose not to go to school? Tell that to the millions of homeschoolers worldwide. And try to make them go to school. I'll tell you one thing, there's no way that's happening. We live in a free country. Get over your fascist fantasies and face reality.
58539672 says2016-02-26T01:32:56.6874924Z
@NewLifeChristian That is where you are wrong. Making vaccinations mandatory for all public schools, colleges, and government jobs alone will get the vast majority of the American population vaccinated. Beyond that, a fine similar to the one used by the affordable care act for those individuals who are uninsured can be applied to those who do not get certain vaccines later in life will cover much of the rest. The government just needs to make not getting vaccine more inconvenient than getting one for it to take effect. For those who physically can't get a vaccine, Ill point you toward my earlier post with Dilara. And the quarantine part was sarcasm, in case you didn't pick up on that. It was an exaggerated version of your reasoning that unvaccinated individuals should just stay home.
Dilara says2016-02-26T04:49:28.8112559Z
58539672 The point is that for various reasons some peoples bodies cant handle vaccines and so if someone feels that they or their kids shouldn't get vaccinated its their choice.
58539672 says2016-02-26T05:30:06.0743744Z
@Dilara If your concern is for those who can't receive a vaccine, then you don't need to worry. You are referring to an incredibly small portion of the population that have a reaction to a vaccine (of which the ones that will get anything worse than a fever are even smaller), so small in fact that it is almost meaningless in comparison to the benefits of vaccination. What someone "feels" is also irrelevant. A weak immune system can be diagnosed with a simple blood test, so anyone of that incredibly small group can be easily exempt from such a policy. The rest can be vaccinated with little to no fear, regardless of how they feel. Their is no scientific reason why we shouldn't do this. Only moral ones.
snkcake666 says2016-02-26T13:53:34.0901051Z
@585 My own mother nearly died from a mandated Polio vaccination. So please, you were saying?
NewLifeChristian says2016-02-26T20:58:37.3216767Z
@snkcake666 Exactly. People who want mandatory vaccinations are ignorant, and quite frankly don't care about American values . . . Especially liberty.
NewLifeChristian says2016-02-26T21:14:33.8262081Z
@58539672 Okay, first of all, I knew you were joking about the quarantine. So, there's no need to talk about that. Secondly, I'm fine with public schools requiring vaccinations, because you can be homeschooled up to high school; however, we should definitely not make vaccines mandatory for colleges and jobs. That is an awful idea. Some people don't receive vaccines for religious purposes (or some just don't receive vaccines because they don't like needles). We can't just keep people from colleges and jobs because of their religion or personal preference. And before you say most major religions don't have negative positions, there are two significant religious sects (being the Dutch Reformed Church and Christian Science) that view vaccines negatively. In addition to this, there are some out there that believe vaccines are harmful. If someone believes something is harmful, why should the government make them do that thing?
Dilara says2016-02-27T00:01:05.4733335Z
58539672 you sound like a communist saying that people can't make their own choices because of "the greater good"http://kutv.Com/news/offbeat/girl-goes-blind-becomes-paralyzed-after-flu-shot
58539672 says2016-02-27T04:16:57.4359374Z
@snkcake666 and @Dilara Both of your arguments are anecdotal. Bringing up individual cases, regardless of how personal they are, does not disprove my statement that those who are negatively effected by vaccines are in a significant minority. Individual cases do not beat statistics.
Dilara says2016-02-27T04:26:36.6943898Z
58539672 I gave you examples where people were PARALYZED and BLINDED by vaccines. Do you really want to force people to take those risks for the greater good? What if someone is unaware of how their body will react to a vaccination? Shouldn't they be able to decide if they will take the risk of blindness or paralyzation ? A couple thousand people being paralyzed by vaccines (when compared to the millions of people who benefit from vaccines) is not a lot to you but to the person who was paralyzed or to their parents it doesn't matter how many people benefited from vaccines. These are human lives being damaged or in some cases lost and to disregard that suffering is absurd.
58539672 says2016-02-27T04:27:55.9600222Z
@NewLifeChristian Why is it an awful idea? If publicly run high schools can demand vaccines, then why can't public colleges and governmental jobs do the same? If someone doesn't want vaccines for religious reasons, then they can easily go to a private college or job. After all, those same religious people get out of having to get vaccinations for public high school by either going to a private high school or homeschooling. As for the view that vaccines are harmful, the vast majority of that is based around hack physicians like Wakefield who falsify their own research. Those vaccines that actually have legitimate concerns are all very new vaccines that haven't been vetted yet. All the ones that matter, like polio, measles, and such have long been proven to work.
58539672 says2016-02-27T04:31:15.1771302Z
@Dilara The examples you have given are anecdotal (which is a logical fallacy). Period. Individual cases do not beat statistics.
SNP1 says2016-02-27T04:33:26.6261006Z
Keep up the good work of educating people 585.
Dilara says2016-02-27T04:33:40.5573251Z
58539672 You understand that vaccines can severely harm or even kill some people right? Those people are in the minority but they exist and to put them in danger for the greater good is cruel.
Dilara says2016-02-27T04:34:50.3521725Z
SNP1 you also don't care about the people whose bodies can't take vaccines?
58539672 says2016-02-27T04:53:10.3376514Z
@Dilara And putting the majority at risk (and a much higher risk at that) for the sack of a small minority is also cruel (and unjust). If you want to advocate for that small minority, you are in the right to do so, but that decision is completely morally based. Their is no scientific, statistical reason why we shouldn't do this policy. Only moral ones.
NewLifeChristian says2016-02-27T14:58:51.7314934Z
@58539672 Okay, maybe that would be fair, but I still don't think vaccinations should be required for government jobs and public higher-education institutions. It just seems like government tyranny, to me. Plus, some of the religious people (and people who can't vaccinate) can't afford to pay for a private university, or aspire to have a career in the government. It simply isn't fair to prevent these people from these things, especially because of their religion.
Dilara says2016-02-27T15:35:29.2818394Z
58539672 Heres a scientific reason. For some people vaccinations cause SERIOUS harm like paralyzation and blindness. It is not ok to force those people to become blind or paralyzed just for the "greater good" of society. Whats worsted? More people getting the flu or less people becoming paralyzed or blinded? Paralyzation and blindness for a lifetime are worsted than one week of sickness. The people whose bodies react well to vaccines should be able to get them but the people whose bodies don't work well with vaccines should be able to opt out. You don't get to decide weather someone else becomes blind or not. Its their life not yours. One person out of 100 becoming blind might not seem like a big deal to you but it is a big deal for the and the other people directly effected.
snkcake666 says2016-02-27T19:13:37.1250683Z
@58539672 Actually, that was an individual case, in support of NewLifeChristian's point. Because in all actuality, it was a decent point, even on an individual case. Wish me to address the infringement of liberty and government enforcement? The case against free will and choice, in favor of a world in which people are no more than puppets to others? Might seem like a Slippery Slope at surface value, but libertarian values begin at the slightest of freedoms, whether it be privacy or fundamental choices. A government's purpose, or America's, was not founded upon theories of enforcement. The single, sole purpose for the government was distinct protection against intrusive governments and militaries of other nations. Yet people allow its theft and its indoctrination into our lives, without a hint of question. Take for a mere second what we value human life as. Infinite perhaps? Without bounds, without worth. No matter how one manipulates infinity, it remains infinity (or indeterminate). So be it the masses or an individual, that worth accounts for no less than interminable value. You assume that the majority is necessarily worth more than the individual, simply because we revolve societal solutions around the desires of the many. Yet even in the most subtle cases of group-think, we can observe a shift, a decrease, in the intellect of a person within the majority. And along the side, the individual retains full control over their mind. Your philosophies reflect those of a collectivist. If someone so desperately wishes to avoid sickness, then they may take the responsibility of vaccinating themselves, or avoiding areas of dense population. No one here is dissuading the choice of vaccination, as long as the choice was determined strictly by the individual. It is not the government's duty to manipulate the lives of the people, even on the most minuscule scale.
58539672 says2016-02-27T23:58:36.4437972Z
@NewLifeChristian And public high school is considerably cheaper than private high school and homeschooling, but you seem content with vaccines being mandatory for high school so long as the other options remain. The same logic applies to college and jobs. If it is tyrannical for vaccines to be mandatory for public colleges and governmental jobs, then it is also tyrannical on the high school level. Also freedom of religion is not absolute (nor has it ever been). Polygamy for instance is illegal in all 50 states, despite it being an important practice for many different religious sects.
58539672 says2016-02-28T00:46:58.8670164Z
@Dilara You are appealing to emotion, not scientific fact. Not creating mandatory vaccinations will kill and debilitate more people than vaccines ever will. Take Measles for instance before the vaccine was invented in 1963. 3 to 5 million people got the disease each year. 48,000 of those would be hospitalized, 4,000 would develop encephalitis, and between 400 to 500 would die. Yearly. Since the vaccine's creation, their have been 57 claims of death caused by the vaccine filed through the federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP). Total. As for your link relating to HPV, their is a few things wrong with the article. For one, it has claimed that the HPV vaccine is connected to Guillain-Barre Syndrome, despite their being no scientific evidence to support that. It also claims that pregnant women in Fiji had miscarriages after receiving the vaccine, which is an unproven claim and a reduction fallacy as a result. It also claims that their have been 200 cases filed to the VICP since its creation in 2004 (which is true). Yet their have been 3700 female deaths caused by HPV in the US each year, 70% of which are caused by HPV 16 and 18, which the HPV vaccine has nearly 100 percent efficiency against. The problem is that many people aren't getting vaccinated, or getting vaccinated after they are already infected and that the vaccine only lasts for 8-9 years, so booster shots are needed.
58539672 says2016-02-28T01:00:12.8181736Z
@snkcake666 The vast majority of your post is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I don't care what your philosophical views on liberty and the role of government. You tried to pass off an individual example as a rebuttal to a statistic, which simply doesn't work, and tried to appeal to emotion by making that individual case personal. You can believe that the government shouldn't have a say in peoples lives, but you can not pass that belief off as undisputed fact. In other words, nothing you have said means anything, and it doesn't disprove anything I have said.
snkcake666 says2016-02-28T01:29:07.3968595Z
@58539672 Then I cannot credit your argument in the same manner. It is -because- you treat human life as a mere statistic and you have not accounted for individual liberty. I do not argue without a boundary of logic myself, but pathos is not a poor reason in itself. As long as that pathos be guided by logos.
snkcake666 says2016-02-28T01:35:02.5229544Z
And in the same manner, if my beliefs are not credited, then I cannot credit yours. If you wish me to substantiate my claim, I shall, but please just ask. But my beliefs are simply a precursor to the remainder of my philosophy. And that philosophy is not without logos of its own.
Dilara says2016-02-28T04:16:35.7800718Z
58539672 Here is a scientific fact. Some peoples bodies react horribly to vaccines. Vaccines make them become blind, paralyzed ect. One does not always know if they are someone whose body will react horribly to a vaccine. Therefor by getting vaccinated they are taking the risk of becoming disabled or even dying. Don't you think that people should be able to choose weather they will or won't take the risk of becoming disabled or even dying from a vaccine? I understand that vaccines are healthy for most people. But not all people. Marysue Grivna for example was paralyzed by a flu shot. Gabi Swank is a girl who got an HPV vaccine and soon afterwords began having seizures andn other problems.
58539672 says2016-02-29T00:31:23.1099819Z
@Dilara I have already answered this question. If you continue to use the same argument despite me poking many holes in it, then this discussion will get nowhere. I will repeat myself one final time. If you continue to post the same flawed rebuttal after that, then this conversation is over. Individual cases do NOT beat statistics. You can bring up as many individual cases of vaccines going wrong, but it will never beat the clear, documented fact that vaccines save more lives than they kill (by a very large margin).
snkcake666 says2016-02-29T00:56:22.3014185Z
@58539672 "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." You realize how simple it is to manipulate bounds and bounds of statistics? Now granted, if you offer experiments performed via random sampling, then we may have another matter. However, I am not too keen on your statement concerning "Individual cases do NOT beat statistics." -Never- trust statistics at face value. They must always be evaluated thoroughly. Not that I am necessarily discrediting the statistics in which you posted, but please note, that individual cases -can- beat statistics.
Dilara says2016-02-29T03:14:45.0839049Z
58539672 So you think its ok to force someone to become disabled or at least take the risk of becoming disabled for the collective well being of society? Individual cases don't seem like a lot to you but those cases are a lot to the individuals in them. Maybe you don't care that someone across the country who was blinded by a vaccine but the person who was blinded does care. Just because people whose bodies can't handle vaccines are in the minority doesn't mean that they don't matter. They do matter. If vaccines were optional they would still save lives and people whose bodies couldn't handle them wouldn't become paralyzed or die. You sound like an communist.
Heterodox says2016-02-29T10:24:36.6121872Z
@58539672 Uhm, what statistics are you looking at that show vaccines have saved more lives than they have taken? Take the Polio vaccine for example. Wasn't it already on the decline before the vaccine was distributed? Doesn't the vaccine actually increase the amount of polio cases (and therefore attribute to more deaths)? Anyway, if the vaccines work, and you have taken them, you're safe if the guy next door doesn't right? What's the problem?
NewLifeChristian says2016-02-29T21:34:23.7364083Z
@58539672 First of all, which major religious sects advocate polygamy? I can think of two major sects that advocate against vaccines, but not polygamy. I mean, there are a couple of fringe groups, (like the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints), but that's pretty much it. Secondly, as I said before, you can homeschool up to high school, but you cannot homeschool through college. That's why I said vaccines could be mandatory for all public institutions K-12.
SNP1 says2016-02-29T21:37:42.7039099Z
@NLC: Not all universities are public universities.
NewLifeChristian says2016-02-29T22:00:52.6543949Z
@SNP1 Yeah, I realize that, but 58539672 said all colleges, including private universities.
58539672 says2016-02-29T22:19:07.5006131Z
@NewLifeChristian You already mentioned one (and probably the most influential, seeing as many others are off branches of it or were excommunicated from it), but some others include the various Mormon fundamentalists (too numerous to list. Most are connected to LDS in some fashion), the Community of Christ, Islam (though very few American muslims advocate it), a few Pagan groups, and the various communities in the Western US that don't adhere to any "mainstream" sect but still practice it (these groups usually range from a 100 people to 10,000 each. All are very isolated). Regardless, the point of that particular example was to show that religious freedom does have its limitations. Its not a get out of jail free card.
58539672 says2016-02-29T22:21:45.8416281Z
@NewLifeChristian Also I never once said all colleges. I mentioned repeatedly that vaccines should be mandatory in public colleges and governmental jobs. You even commented on it specifically in an earlier post.
58539672 says2016-02-29T22:40:00.6254459Z
@Heterodox Polio cases were going down at the time of the vaccination, but that decline was in the established trend of the illness. After the vaccine was created, cases dropped exponentially fast and remained at historic lows. The vaccine doesn't increase the amount of cases, because the virus was eradicated from the US in 1979 thanks to that vaccine. And due to herd immunity, if enough people remain unvaccinated, then the virus will persist and continue to spread. If everyone gets vaccinated however (or at least a significant portion of the population), the virus can be eliminated entirely (like smallpox). If vaccination stops however, the virus has a chance of making a comeback. | | |
NewLifeChristian says2016-03-01T19:12:17.6237768Z
@58539672 Okay, I apologize about the all colleges part, I misunderstood you, but you're still wrong about religious exemption. You see, polygamy isn't something that is being forced upon you. Vaccines are. There's a difference between the two, and you can still practice polygamy in the United States. Private polygamy ceremonies aren't being prohibited.
bhakun says2016-03-25T01:14:00.1853906Z
Question for people that are anti-vax. Do you think employees in the food industry should be required to wash their hands after they go to the bathroom?
Dilara says2016-03-25T02:48:02.9880432Z
Bhakun Not everyones bodies are the same.
bhakun says2016-03-25T03:32:00.9337530Z
@Dilara whats your point? Employees dont need to wash their hands because everyones body is different?

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