The Bible: Did god know that Adam and Eve would disobey him and eat the forbidden fruit of knowledge?

Posted by: briantheliberal

If yes, then he wanted them to eat the fruit and is therefore fully responsible for the existence of sin and the evil actions committed by man, which makes him evil as well. If no, then he is not an "all-knowing" being, and is therefore not worthy of being called "God" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m0YYy9lqqs

  • Yes. God knew they would disobey him.

  • No, God did not know they would disobey him.

93% 14 votes
7% 1 votes
  • It was still Adam and Eve's choice to disobey him. It's like if I said "If you don't study for the test you'll fail" and you do not study for the test. I'd know your failure would come as a result but it was still your choice not to study.

  • it was to wstablish true free will. To have true free will and follow god of your own volition it is necessary for this to happen. obviously its all a metaphor though

    Posted by: Stefy
  • God knows everything. The future eating of the apple is a thing. Therefore God knew the eating of the apple would happen. QED.

  • 1. The Lord is all knowing 2. If they hadn't eaten the fruit thy never would have become fully mortal and would likely have just continued living (without reproduction) in eden forever. I like to think of it as this... The Lord hilariously tricked Saten into screwing himself over. If they hadn't had kids nobody else would come here and be saved and sent to heaven. Saten effectively ruined his own plan.

  • Didn't he always know everything, or is that just atheist propaganda?

  • Of God knew they would disobey him. All is as it was meant to be. If you love something let it go. If it comes back to you it is yours. If it does not then it never was. God did not want us to be slaves to him. He wanted us to come to him willingly!

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briantheliberal says2015-05-24T06:13:37.4518166-05:00
This should be interesting.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T07:32:20.3325130-05:00
Did you just get your source from a video that explicitly states its a comedy? I'm quite sure "comedy" videos do not act as reliable sources for arguments.
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T07:40:02.6722439-05:00
"It was still Adam and Eve's choice to disobey him." - Can you explain to me how they knew how to disobey god before eating the fruit and knowing it was wrong? If they didn't even possess the ability to know what "sin" is how were they able to give into temptation (which is a sin) before knowing what sin even was if they had to eat the fruit to find out?
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T07:40:56.9676365-05:00
Also, genius, it is a satirical comedy, still based on actual critique, and verses from the Bible. I wasn't using it as a source of information, just entertainment for people to watch and think about. The biggest troll on this site lecturing me about sources, that's hilarious.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T07:48:48.0094374-05:00
"The biggest troll on this site lecturing me abot sources, that's hilarious" Blatant Ad Hominenen, whether or not I troll on this site is completely irrelevant to my previous argument (And is frankly quite rude given that I have made no attempt provoking an insult or personal attack) "I wasn't using it as a source of information, just entertainment for people to watch and think about. " Given how you added the link (right after your argument) You made it seem as though that was your source. "If they didn't even possess the ability to know what "sin" is how were they able to give into temptation (which is a sin) before knowing what sin even was if they had to eat the fruit to find out?" This was the role Satan had in the story, he was the one that tempted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, however it was still their choice to eat the fruit. Secondly, where in the Bible does it state that Adam and Eve did not know the concept of Sin, or where incapable of sinning? Just because you do not know what an action was doesn't mean you are incapable of doing the action. You may not know that something may be a crime in your country,but that doesn't mean you are incapable of doing said crime.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T08:04:05.6314570-05:00
Secondly the next problem with your argument stems from making huge leaps in your claims "If yes, then he wanted them to eat the fruit and is therefore fully responsible for the existence of sin and the evil ACTIONS committed by man, which makes him evil as well. " Just because he was aware that the actions would take place, doesn't mean that Adam and Eve were unable to make their own choice, it does not in any way prove that he was "evil" or "fully responsible for the existence of sin and the evil ACTIONS committed by man," given that once more, It was man's choice to sin afterward. You did not prove that they were not responsible for their own sin. (Maybe I should be more like you and add a snarky/condescending comment at the end of my argument)
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T08:18:50.2768482-05:00
First of all it's not ad hominem if it's true. And it's also not an "insult or personal attack" nor is it an attack on your character. You troll a lot on this site, and I merely pointed out that out. You take it as an attack if you wish, it's not my problem you have easily hurt feelings. Second, I never said anywhere that I was using that video as a source, you ASSUMED that was the case, and tried to act condescending about it like you actually had a point. Aside from this, you did not answer my question. If God allowed Satan, who by the only supposedly exists BECAUSE GOD ALLOWS IT, to manipulate two ignorant beings and turn a blind eye to his mischief, that again begs the question: Where was God when this was happening? If he is an all-knowing being, then he would have already been aware this was occurring, but did nothing to stop it. The Bible clearly says that the only way Adam and Eve were to be aware of sin's existence was to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge, but how can that be possible if they didn't even know what sin was? In Genesis 3:22 God says, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.” - that is why they became ashamed of their naked bodies upon eating the fruit itself. They didn't know what sin was to begin with. Not to mention, God was very vague about the tree in the first place, and why it even existed. Why would he even create such a tree unless he wanted his creations to eat the fruit it bares? I'll tell you why, because he either wanted them to eat it, (and knew they would) or he is completely incapable of knowing everything, which makes him oblivious. I believe he wanted them to eat it, that's why he allowed Satan to tempt them, and did nothing about it.
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T08:22:25.2815610-05:00
"Just because he was aware that the actions would take place, doesn't mean that Adam and Eve were unable to make their own choice" - So let me get this straight... He allowed free will to exist, BEFORE free will existed. Gotcha, still doesn't make any damn sense though.
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T08:26:13.3189191-05:00
And while we are at it. Explain this to me, why was there food available to them? If there was no death, then why would their bodies need sustenance or nourishment? If there was no death, then why were animals, like lions, tigers, and bears "designed" to kill and eat meat? And species, like bacteria and parasitic organisms, who rely upon the cycle of life to exist? According to the Bible, God created these organisms before the forbidden fruit was eaten. That means, eating the magic fruit would've been necessary for God's design to work, regardless of whether or not it was eaten in a magic place. There are no logical explanations for any of this, unless god planned for all of this to happen, which makes him responsible for all the evil in the world. Correct?
blackkid says2015-05-24T08:26:42.9845686-05:00
"First of all it's not ad hominem if it's true." Actually ad hominem is generally true.
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T08:31:46.2095434-05:00
Blackkid, well then I suppose even if it were an ad hominem, it's still correct. He does troll a lot. But that is beside the point, I am really looking for some logical explanations to this story, because it doesn't make any sense to me.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T08:36:18.9357362-05:00
@briantheliberal "First of all it's not ad hominem if it's true. And it's also not an "insult or personal attack" nor is it an attack on your character" Ad Hominem: " adverb:(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining." Your argument according to the dictionary definition does fit under an ad hominem, " it's not my problem you have easily hurt feelings." I seem to notice that you are quick to accuse people of being easily offended. "You troll a lot on this site, and I merely pointed out that out. " Once more, completely irrelevant to my original argument and was directed at me, not my argument. Therefore it is an Ad Hominem. "I never said anywhere that I was using that video as a source, you ASSUMED that was the case, and tried to act condescending about it like you actually had a point." Once more I only assumed ONCE, the second time I mentioned this I was trying to justify the assumption. "Aside from this, you did not answer my question. If God allowed Satan, who by the only supposedly exists BECAUSE GOD ALLOWS IT, to manipulate two ignorant beings and turn a blind eye to his mischief, that AGAIN begs the question: Where was God when this was happening?" Not once did you mention Satan in your previous arguments, I brought him up. "They didn't know what sin was to begin with. Not to mention, God was very vague about the tree in the first place, and why it even existed. Why would he even create such a tree unless he wanted his creations to eat the fruit it bares? " God did that as a test, tests were a common motif in the bible and christian theology. God explicitly said not to take the fruits from one of the trees and amongst multiple trees to choose from to eat fruit, Adam and Eve chose to eat from the ONE tree they were not allowed to eat from.Even if they were not aware of the concept of sin at the time they were explicitly told not to do one thing, and then went ahead and blatantly did so.
blackkid says2015-05-24T08:36:21.5410030-05:00
Chronlogically it does make sense. 1. Adam is created and granted free will therefore humanity now has free will. 2. Eve is created of Adam gaining this power. 3. Apples and Trees, deception, snakes, etc. Relative to the "rules" of Free Will while God can know the intricacies of a person inside and out since omniscience is an ability it can be willfully unused. In the same way you can move your fingers God can decide what he does and does not know as "not knowing" rather than "knowing" is the natural base just like "not moving" versus "moving" is the natural state of your fingers. So "The Fall" actually could not have been predicted by God. So why plant the tree there? Who knows?
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T08:37:17.9832502-05:00
@briantheliberal "So let me get this straight... He allowed FREE will to exist, BEFORE free will existed. Gotcha, still doesn't make any damn sense though." That is not at all what I said, don't put words into my mouth.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T08:40:58.3545006-05:00
"If there was no death, then why were animals, like lions, tigers, and bears "designed" to kill and eat meat? And species, like bacteria and parasitic organisms, who rely upon the cycle of life to exist? " That was in Heaven where there was no death. On Earth the animals were meant to eat meat, the bible did not mention that animals ate meat and died in Heaven, they were only meant to do that on Earth.
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T08:45:46.8993062-05:00
Blackkid, It doesn't make sense chronologically either. When Adam and Eve were created, they knew nothing of sin. It was the fruit that allowed them to even know what sin was. But before they even ate the fruit, they were subject to temptation. God didn't simply create man with free will, free will was granted after his creations disobeyed him. So they had to sin to know what sin was, which doesn't really make any sense. And there was no point in the tree with fruit existing in the first place, unless he wanted them to eat it. That's essentially like leaving a loaded gun in reach of a small child and saying "Don't touch that gun, it's dangerous" then casually walking away expecting that child to listen. Then when the child shoots and kills himself/herself, you blame them for their own death. That is incredibly irresponsible, and lacks any form of logic, or critical thinking, which is not a characteristic associated with a supposedly all knowing, all powerful, all present being.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T08:46:12.5575430-05:00
@briantheliberal "well then I suppose even if it were an ad hominem, it's still correct. He does troll a lot. But that is beside the point," An Ad Hominem is called a fallacy for a reason. Just because it may be "correct" doesn't mean it could substitute for and actual argument because whether or not I troll is completely irrelevent your original claim, neither does it discredit my claim. And is therefore a pointless argument and a fallacy
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T08:50:23.0710074-05:00
"That is not at all what I said, don't put words into my mouth." - Then explain what you said further, because that is what it sounds like to me. " That was in Heaven where there was no death." - Adam and Eve were not in Heaven, the Bible clearly says they were on Earth you know the place spent 7 days creating..? They lived in the Garden of Eden, which was on Earth.. Are you sure we are discussing the same story here?
blackkid says2015-05-24T08:51:44.5725935-05:00
"God didn't simply create man with free will, free will was granted after his creations disobeyed him." Now that would need a citation. Adam was created in God's Image. Genesis 1:27 clearly states this. You can't just change the story to fit your needs.
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T08:52:46.7929893-05:00
Doesn't matter, we aren't discussing ad hominems. That is a pointless argument. You questioned my "sources" and I corrected you, end of story.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T08:57:35.3991915-05:00
@briantheliberal No it is not the "end of the story" I acknowledged in my second comment that the video was not your source, I was just trying to explain my justification for the assumption. Secondly, you used a fallacious argument (Ad Hom) and I was just pointing that out, therefore it was not a "pointless argument". Thirdly, this conversation is about much more then about your whether that video was your source or not. You explicitly mentioned that you were looking for " some logical explanations to this story, because it doesn't make any sense to me."
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T08:59:03.3310467-05:00
Blackkid, "You can't just change the story to fit your needs." - Wow what a joke. Nobody is changing anything. It clearly says in Genesis 1:28; 2:16, 17 “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” - “And God also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will surely die." So you can stop falsely accusing me of something to deny and make excuses for something that is in plain text.
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T09:01:05.7562137-05:00
Okay good for you UtherPenguin, it's still not relevant to me. You shouldn't have assumed in the first place.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T09:02:03.8040793-05:00
Then neither should you have used the Ad Hominem.
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T09:04:28.3313032-05:00
UtherPenguin, you assumed first. You should have never done that, and maybe I wouldn't have responded by pointing out your obvious trolling and nonsense you post on this site everyday for no reason. Goodbye! Come back when you have something relevant to say.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T09:09:18.7815102-05:00
@briantheliberal Once more, my trolling is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to this argument, and now you are blaming me for a fallacy that you used. I could just as easily brought up how much of an @ss you are to republicans and conservatives (or anyone that disagrees with you frankly), or I could have brought up how you were nominated for "Most Hated" user on DDO.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T09:11:45.0977721-05:00
Ps: I had already made my argument and reason for voting on my position in this poll, You in fact started half the argument when you rebutted my poll comment. 90% Of my comments were in response to you and were therefore completely relevant to the subject, as opposed to your snarky/condescending behaviour towards anyone that disagrees with you.
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T09:14:40.9142801-05:00
I think you are confusing me with someone who actually cares.. This is the Internet. I don't care what you people think, and quite frankly, your opinions have no effect on my life. None of you pay my bills, or my college tuition. None of you provide me with a place to live. So again, why is any of that relevant to me? I can be the biggest @ss I want, but just because I am blunt and express my opinions in a way you don't like, doesn't make me obligated to care if your feelings are hurt. Go cry somewhere else. Think about that next time you come off as completely condescending and make assumptions.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T09:21:31.5948101-05:00
@briantheliberal You are completely contradicting yourself. If you don't care: Then why did you make this poll? Why did you respond to my comment? And why did you willingly join a website called "Debate.Org"? Why do you have well over 500+ forum posts if you didn't care about the opinion of others. If you didn't care about other peoples opinions then you would not have bothered to make this poll in the first place, nor would you bother responding to me. You don't care if your an @ss but you bring up me as being as "condescending" and get angry cause of it? That is extremely hypocritical. No wonder so many people on this site hate you.
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T09:29:46.9057350-05:00
I don't care about your negativity, or personal feelings about me, genius. I am interested in hearing political opinions and other issues, but that's pretty much it. You can think badly of me all you want, but honestly, I fail to see why that should be relevant to me. I'm also not angry, so I have no idea why you and some other people here love to jump to that conclusion. Most of the time, I sit and laugh at some of the things people say here, including you, because it's so ignorant, and out of touch with logic and reality that I don't even think it's worthy of a response. But I need to be entertained sometime, so I just follow along until I get bored. It's not hypocritical, that is just how I am, take it or leave it. That's pretty much it I suppose.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T09:37:26.6356977-05:00
"I am Iintrested in hearing political opinions and other issues" Didn't you just say you didn't care about other opinions? "Most of the time, I sit and laugh at some of the things people say here, including you, because it's so ignorant, and out of touch with logic and reality that I don't even think it's worthy of a response" Congratulations! You just showed your true colours. A contradictory, condescending @ss who should not be taken seriously because of his failure to take others seriously. What point is there in debating if you are just going to "sit and laugh" at what they say? If that is not the textbook definition of condescending, then I don't know what is. It's called "Debate.Org" not "condescension.Org" (Don't bother replying, it will only further prove that you do care.)
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T09:43:15.0238305-05:00
Aww boo hoo. You just made me tear up, I am literally bawling in sadness. Anyway, now that that is over, and your own true colors have been shown, aside from their pathetic troll facade you keep putting up to incite conflict between users, it's time to eat breakfast.
briantheliberal says2015-05-24T10:32:27.5990602-05:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRGnPIlclps
blackkid says2015-05-24T12:05:46.8979037-05:00
[ Blackkid, "You can't just change the story to fit your needs." - Wow what a joke. Nobody is changing anything. It clearly says in Genesis 1:28; 2:16, 17 “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” - “And God also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will surely die." So you can stop falsely accusing me of something to deny and make excuses for something that is in plain text. ] Shiftin' those goalposts I see? Original claim: "God didn't simply create man with free will, free will was granted after his creations disobeyed him." which Gen. 1:27 completely refutes. Maybe someone else will fall for this stuff.
UtherPenguin says2015-05-24T16:25:32.5399253-05:00
@briantheliberal And your behaviour only further proves my point. I honestly hope you are not like this in real life. This argument was an obvious waste of time.

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