Were the white Europeans wrong to take land from the native americans?

Posted by: Varrack

I would like to debate someone on this. I am con.

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minnymilerza says2015-04-12T19:13:11.7553851-05:00
Please add an "unsure" option
tajshar2k says2015-04-12T19:21:36.6189372-05:00
Varrack, what is your reason for being Con?
TBR says2015-04-12T19:28:57.4250432-05:00
It's not good in a binary question. The behavior was not right, but. Given different history it would have been moral.
Varrack says2015-04-12T19:31:59.0271017-05:00
I am Con because the Europeans had a right to take their land. The natives didn't believe in property rights: they held that land was the common property of all, and that everyone is a renter. Besides, the natives fought wars with each other and did the exact same things to themselves, so why are the Europeans suddenly bad for doing it? Also, the natives have a lot more opportunities now and have benefited immensely from the culture and technology that the Europeans brought with them.
Varrack says2015-04-12T19:33:15.0246509-05:00
@TBR, they did some immoral things, but they sure didn't steal anything from anyone.
Midnight1131 says2015-04-12T19:34:32.8419179-05:00
Varrack, if the natives believed that property to be common property of all, then how did the Europeans have the right to take it?
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T19:35:15.7566926-05:00
So Varrack, do you also believe in the mass murder, rape, and intentional spread of disease of the Native Americans as well?
Varrack says2015-04-12T19:37:29.8831875-05:00
@Midnight, they had the right to take it because it wasn't necessarily anyone's.
Midnight1131 says2015-04-12T19:37:30.9752155-05:00
Briantheliberal has a point. The natives definitely didn't benefit from this at all.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T19:39:24.1837191-05:00
Midnight, apparently "property rights" are a good excuse to commit mass genocide to steal land from entire groups of people.
Varrack says2015-04-12T19:39:37.7882680-05:00
@Brian, do you know history? Apparently you don't. There was no "mass murder". A few immoral things happened but the natives did some awful things to the Europeans as well, such as the Jamestown slaughter of 1622. There was also no " intentional spread of disease". That is false.
Varrack says2015-04-12T19:40:42.7085331-05:00
There was no genocide. Stop believing false propaganda.
discomfiting says2015-04-12T19:41:16.5309545-05:00
What do you call it when one nation colonizes another mass of land via killing the occupants living there until there's like 5% of the population left after something maybe called manifest destiny promoted my capitalist pigs like Thomas Jefferson by creating displacement and genocide????
discomfiting says2015-04-12T19:41:31.3818689-05:00
This kid's a quack conspiracy theorist.
Midnight1131 says2015-04-12T19:41:49.8519137-05:00
Henry Bouquet confirmed that he had intentions to give the natives blankets infected with smallpox after the idea was presented to him.
tajshar2k says2015-04-12T19:42:48.6627827-05:00
@midnight Ya, I remember watching a documentary on it once in 7th grade.
tajshar2k says2015-04-12T19:43:38.3010281-05:00
Even if we could have taken the land, I don't believe we had the right to kick them out.
Varrack says2015-04-12T19:44:38.4066722-05:00
@discomfiting, there was no "genocide". Genocide implies an intention of wiping out people.
GarlicBred24 says2015-04-12T19:45:26.9222313-05:00
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T19:46:04.5075953-05:00
Varrack, I don't know history? The Europeans murdered millions of Native Americans. In the United States, they were forced to move across the country and were eventually wiped out with the exception of a few select tribes. Natives murdering Europeans was an act of retaliation. Also Europeans intentionally spread smallpoxs and STIs to native people, who they knew were not immune to them. They even gave them blankets used by their own who had smallpox. Many Europeans raped Native women, and forced them into slavery until many of them died off, many Latin Americans, like myself are a product of this travesty. Keep making excuses if you want to. http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/7302
discomfiting says2015-04-12T19:46:29.7978439-05:00
Varrack says2015-04-12T19:48:27.0670748-05:00
@Midnight, one isolated allegation of a person approving a strategy to give Indian smallpox infected blankets does not mean that the scheme was actually carried out.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T19:49:08.9535259-05:00
Varrack probably supports forcing Africans into slavery too because of "property rights" since they were considered actual property...
Midnight1131 says2015-04-12T19:51:43.4290879-05:00
Read the link from garlicbred, and then say there wasn't intention on the European side to kill the natives.
Varrack says2015-04-12T19:52:01.5473501-05:00
Again, there was no "genocide". The reason your article states that the native population was reduced by millions was because of the transmission of diseases which was unintentional. No smallpox blanket scheme was ever carried out.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T19:54:12.0651056-05:00
Varrack, Oh I see, so Native Americans weren't being pillaged, raped and given Chlamydia, forced into slavery until they eventually died out?
discomfiting says2015-04-12T19:55:27.1357964-05:00
Genocide is the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation. What else would you call killing 100,000,000+ people
Varrack says2015-04-12T19:56:22.9540664-05:00
@Midnight I'm not saying there wasn't bad intentions on the side of the Europeans. But you need to consider the massacres that were carried out by the natives too. The Powhaton massacre by the natives killed 347 English men, women, and children. It's in the Wiki article that garlicbread sent. Read it.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T19:56:33.2201297-05:00
Discomforting, He calls it "freedom".
Varrack says2015-04-12T19:57:20.9155530-05:00
@discomfiting, exactly. Thing is, no Europeans intentionally killed 100 million people. It was disease.
discomfiting says2015-04-12T19:57:57.0656802-05:00
Yeah and the illness was their presense and occupation.
discomfiting says2015-04-12T19:58:41.4144602-05:00
The only real freedom to be wanted is freedom from oppression; there is no freedom in colonization- that's freedom to be oppressed.
58539672 says2015-04-12T19:59:56.1087334-05:00
Not all white Europeans took the natives land. The French had a very good relationship with the natives. Its the English and the Spanish that really took what they could get.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T20:01:14.9623073-05:00
Discomforting, exactly but that is why I am not a conservative. They don't believe in freedom of oppression, they believe in protecting the rights of themselves and nobody else. They believe in protecting the "status quo" that only benefits rich, white heterosexuals (esp male) with money, and nobody else.
Varrack says2015-04-12T20:02:23.8615231-05:00
@Brian @discomfiting, What about the Mongols who invaded the Europeans from the Asian steppes and transmitted the Black Death to them? No one calls these plagues genocide, because they weren't.
discomfiting says2015-04-12T20:06:27.7206926-05:00
Land ownership perpetrates colonization; they didn't colonize unused land. They took the land from the indigenous people and killed them if they resisted and sometimes even if they didn't.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T20:06:51.1358423-05:00
Varrack, stop making comparisons that have nothing to do with the actual topic. Nobody even said that wasn't genocide, but how does that excuse the mass killing, rape and enslavement of Native peoples by Europeans, mainly the British, Spanish and Portuguese?
discomfiting says2015-04-12T20:07:02.6696740-05:00
NotAllColonists save me the water works mate
tajshar2k says2015-04-12T20:07:16.9928414-05:00
Varrack technically you are doing your debate here in the comments LOL.
58539672 says2015-04-12T20:11:25.8153599-05:00
Most native tribes within the Americas died from disease. It is believed to be somewhere between 80% and 90%. This can be seen by the early years of colonialism (1500s) when their simply weren't enough Spanish on the continents to kill off the millions that died in that century. The rest experienced several small genocides over the centuries, but nothing on the scale of say, the holocaust. That is why historian tend to put the Native Americans in the gray area of genocidal history. They didn't experience one massive genocide, but rather several small ones separated by decades of general peace.
Varrack says2015-04-12T20:12:44.7524484-05:00
@Brian, have you ignored my points about the natives doing the same things to themselves and to the colonists? I want you to find out how many natives were enslaved/raped and prove that "millions and millions" were like you said they were.
heil36 says2015-04-12T20:12:49.9171809-05:00
Briantheliberal how about classicide th genocide of a social class simply because they had more land. Many nobles were killed in the french revolution for being rich and wealthy and most importatnly landowning. What about in the soviet union and china, where simply owning too much land was a crime. Of course you don't complain about that cause that's left wing genocide
tajshar2k says2015-04-12T20:13:50.1905834-05:00
@heil36 That has nothing to do with this topic. No one is denying Stalin was insane.
discomfiting says2015-04-12T20:15:08.7818720-05:00
To be fair, capitalists are delusional and insane too
Varrack says2015-04-12T20:15:20.9340383-05:00
And Brian, point is that genocide is intentional. The Black Death was unintentional, as was the diseases the natives got.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T20:17:36.6826277-05:00
58539672, "several small genocides" is still genocide. Even if most of them died from disease, millions were still slaughtered, raped and forced into slavery. The numbers of those who died from disease doesn't somehow excuse the murder of those that did not. Not to mention, Europeans eventually had guns, which they used to their advantage by murdering Native people and forcing them to work on plantations. After most of them died off, they went to Africa, murdered many of them along with other Africans, whom they gave guns and promised riches to and imported them to the Americas to work in place of the Native people.
heil36 says2015-04-12T20:18:23.4711358-05:00
Capitalists only care about rich communists only care about poor national socialists care about rich AND poor Hitler had the best economic system
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T20:19:08.0932803-05:00
Heil, What the hell are you talking about? Why are you even talking to me?
heil36 says2015-04-12T20:19:22.0742009-05:00
"the symbol of unification of all classes of the german people has become the symbol of the new reich, and thus it has become the standard of the german people...Because we do not say to the rich people give something to the poor, we say everyone must help whether you are rich or poor, Everyone must have the belief that there's someone in a much worse situation than I am in, and this person I want to help as a comrade." Adolf Hitler
heil36 says2015-04-12T20:20:30.4788854-05:00
Of course you would just try to not know about something that makes the leftwing look bad.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T20:22:12.9377150-05:00
Heil, I am not "pretending" anything. You're just not worth responding to because your dribble is irrelevant to this discussion as usual. Continue ranting about random nonsense on your own, but leave me out of it. Thanks.
heil36 says2015-04-12T20:23:44.8667471-05:00
Briantheliberal Africa's life standards today is higher than before the Europeans started enslaving africans. Same with native americans. Oh whoops that's somehow not relevant to what you just said
heil36 says2015-04-12T20:26:39.0997964-05:00
And also the native americans weren't being exterminated so much as being driven off their land
heil36 says2015-04-12T20:27:15.1819025-05:00
If they were being exterminated why not send them to gulags and not give them a chance to live on by going ton a 'trail of tears'
heil36 says2015-04-12T20:27:50.9052155-05:00
Point is they were being relocated and not exterminated. No one was calling for the extermination of Native Americans.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T20:29:14.5336417-05:00
What part of leave me out of your dribble didn't you get before? Especially because that's a lie and also not what you said the first time. So please leave me out of your ridiculous comments.
Varrack says2015-04-12T21:33:19.7832587-05:00
Well the here's the debate offer: http://www.debate.org/debates/On-Balance-the-British-Conquest-of-Native-American-Lands-was-Justified/1/ lemme know if anyone's interested.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T22:16:39.8164571-05:00
I was actually considering it, because I have more time away from classes, but since you think I am the dumbest DDO user it would be a waste of time.
Varrack says2015-04-12T22:18:20.7245892-05:00
Nah, you would be too easy. I need an actual challenge.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T22:20:25.6031921-05:00
Oh I see, you need someone with a lower mental capacity to accommodate your blatant lack of logic. Got it.
Varrack says2015-04-12T22:20:34.0459526-05:00
Also you voted for yourself and encouraged the other members to vote for you, so really I don't see what I did that was an issue, nor how it factors into me being "worth your time".
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T22:21:06.3554373-05:00
Oh and lying, you need someone who will believe the lies you spread and believe. That also seems to be very important to you.
briantheliberal says2015-04-12T22:22:12.3552620-05:00
Yeah, because THAT is the reason you bothered voting yes. Riiiight.
Dilara says2015-04-12T22:42:33.6140587-05:00
Native Americans took lands from, enslaved and killed each other before the white people came. There were many horrible things done to them by white people. The trail of tears in 1830 was where thousands of south Eastern natives were expelled from their homes and sent to reservations in Oklahoma. Many died on the way from disease and drowning (when a steam ship blew up) and lost their land.
Dilara says2015-04-12T22:53:24.6689592-05:00
The Spanish ensalved California's natives I'm pretty sure. But like i said natives enslaved each other to. They also kidnapped European women as "wives" and took them into sex slavery and attacked white people who were traveling out west through the Oregon trail in the 1800s. Also the Jamestown massacre in 1620 was carried out by pohawtan Indians and killed almost 400 english colonists. Still there were massacres of native Americans by whites like the mass killings of the Cheyenne at sand creek in Wyoming and the Sioux at wounded knee in the 1800s. Most white people didn't have anything to do with these massacres and most natives didn't either. Today native Americans live in poverty partly because of forced exodus their ancestors suffered.

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