Vote
98 Total Votes
1

Send U.S troops to fight ISIS

49 votes
12 comments
2

Do absolutely nothing

25 votes
4 comments
3

Fund the Kurds

12 votes
5 comments
4

Help Al-Assad fight ISIS

7 votes
1 comment
5

Depend on the Saudi's, Turkish etc...

5 votes
2 comments
Leave a comment...
(Maximum 900 words)
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T22:24:45.2805894Z
Saudi Arabia and Turkey are useless allies in this situation.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:25:10.9900486Z
The Syrian goverment is just as bad as Isis. Just they will not attack us.
triangle.128k says2015-09-04T22:26:24.9249008Z
@tajshar2k Turkey is the strongest regional power in the middle east, how are they useless?
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T22:26:32.7873512Z
The Syrian government can be reasoned with. Thats the thing. We can convince them to fight ISIS, while we take off sanctions of them. Remember, the West are the ones who tried to get Al-Assad out of power.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T22:26:37.5765819Z
@tajshar2k They are the regional powers of the Middle East, hence have the greatest incentive and interest to fight ISIS, Western powers lack sufficient incentive aside from witnessing the occasional beheadings.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T22:26:49.8341830Z
If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. Only the U.S. is competent enough to handle the terror group: ISIS.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:26:54.7327086Z
Saudi arbia will not do it. Turkey will not launch a ground invasion unless someone attacks them first. By attack I mean a massive invasion.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T22:27:03.5663485Z
Triangle.128k, Are you actually serious? What exactly has Turkey achieved?
stargate says2015-09-04T22:28:00.2855894Z
They would be unwilling to do it.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T22:28:16.1848140Z
@tajshar2k The bigger concern should be to get Turkey to act. Turkey could be a great ally, they are just too neutral on the matter to help.
Varrack says2015-09-04T22:28:37.3833406Z
Israel is also a close and useful ally of ours, but they have their own terrorists to deal with.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:29:20.1284366Z
He Syrian goverment hates us, plus they are just as bad as Isis. Now they are the lesser evil but not by much.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T22:29:28.7398574Z
Turkey isn't willing to go to war. No one else in the region will oppose ISIS, the U.S. has to attack ISIS before they attack the U.S.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:30:18.8483422Z
If turkey helped then it would be great, but they will not.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T22:31:24.0892150Z
The U.S. can't just stand aside and watch ISIS exterminated groups of people like they almost did the Kurds, Syrian and the U.S. aren't on good terms, and Turkey won't do anything. The only solution is for the U.S. to get personally involved.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T22:31:25.9924638Z
@TeennagerX The likelihood of ISIS acting as a direct threat to the US is abysmally low, they haven't even consolidated enough territory to even consider that.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:31:44.9781506Z
You why israel won the six day war? Becuase they had the balls and the power to attack first.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T22:32:25.5836127Z
@stargate Only to give back that territory after the war.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:34:28.5795454Z
True but, we give back there land to. The last time we gained land though war was the Spanish American war.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T22:34:59.7335442Z
@Utherpenguin, I rather have these terrorists wiped out than to stand by and let them develop, all the while continuing to rape, behead, and murder innocent people, women and children as we speak. The United States must take action if no one else is willing.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:36:13.1490266Z
Like it or not we act the the world police. So it is time to fill that role.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T22:37:12.3758511Z
@TeenagerX Much of the circumstances that allowed ISIS to develop came as the aftermath to the Iraq War. The US cannot always respond to violence with more violence, otherwise you just make the problem worse. If you have a hammer, doesn't mean every problem should look like a nail.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:39:04.9250310Z
We left and the Iraqi goverment was to weak to keep the peace. So there was a power vacuum and someone needed to fill it. So here we are.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:39:43.7592215Z
There was appear vacuum after we left. Isis filled it.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T22:40:08.0754502Z
@Utherpenguin We shouldn't be idle. While the U.S. is partially responsible for the creation of ISIS, it should be fully responsible for its demolition as well.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:40:33.7887422Z
Guys there is no easy ansew or quick solution if we do go to war. We need allies, and we need to stay untile the job is done.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T22:42:15.3453932Z
@TeenagerX It is not the US' job to fit ISIS, it's the job of country's actually neighbouring that region.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T22:42:21.5368722Z
@ Stargate I want the U.S. and Turkey to work together to get rid of ISIS, except that Turkey doesn't want the U.S. to get involved for whatever reason.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:43:26.5598497Z
We need turkey france and the uk. This along with us should make our slide win.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:45:01.0652555Z
You do know Isis basically started due to the Syrian civil war, then due to Iraq being weak they quickly gained land.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T22:45:41.6900042Z
@UtherPenguin I agree, but clearly Syria can't handle ISIS. As I've repeatedly stated, Turkey refuses to take aggressive action. Who else is going to combat ISIS? Iran? Saudi Arabia? At least one of these countries support the terrorist group.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T22:48:55.8993838Z
@Stargate Most European nations would rather not get their hands dirty, It has always been the U.S. going into and evicting these muslim extremists. They have 0 incentive to get involved, UK and France.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:49:40.7126481Z
True, but we need someone.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T22:50:53.1127122Z
The coalition would probably benefit if Iran worked with the US
stargate says2015-09-04T22:52:53.7950858Z
It would, but would they help.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T22:54:52.1686446Z
@stargate Since Iran is close to the conflict zones in Iraq, it would probably be in their best interests to quell said conflict.
stargate says2015-09-04T22:56:24.6148372Z
True but would they help if we had boots on the ground?
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T22:58:14.5029066Z
@Utherpenguin Two points, first Iran hates the U.S. and would never work with them in any military operation. Second, they sponsor terrorism, enough said.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T22:58:30.3672433Z
@stargate Probably not, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G4nUFfvR9A
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T22:59:41.9873024Z
@TeenagerX How and who did Iran sponsor, terrorists are not monolithic. Also, just because the two countries hate each other, doesn't mean they can't work together.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T23:01:57.1206146Z
@Utherpenguin Also, ISIS isn't even a threat to Iran, Iran Quds would destroy ISIS, as in 1 sided blowout, if they ever tried anything. The only reason why ISIS still exists is because no one is stopping them. ISIS is smart enough to avoid big fish like Saudi Arabia and Iran, choosing to prey on more vulnerable nations like Syria and Iraq. U.S. Must do something.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:03:40.8092333Z
@TeenagerX If ISIS considers Iran to be a big fish, that just acts as a better reason for Iran to get involved. If Iran could crush ISIS, then it's way more cost effective to have Iran and Saudi fight a war that's in their best interests.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T23:08:03.0903982Z
@UtherPenguin Exactly my point, Iran could get rid of ISIS yet they won't. What do you think this means?
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:08:23.1866434Z
@Utherpenguin Turkey hasn't been doing anything productive either. They literally waited last moment to fight ISIS, because they hoped ISIS would finish the Kurds off. So, I don't trust Turkey. Also Saudi Arabia is also pretty useless.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:09:19.7838062Z
@Utherpenguin Helping Iran in any way is a horrible idea.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:10:40.1867216Z
My point is, we can't depend on Saudi Arabia and Turkey. They are incompetent in fighting ISIS. If I were to see who is worse between Al-Assad and ISIS I would pick ISIS. Make some sort of deal with Al-Assad, and keep ISIS weak.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:10:56.3484252Z
@tajshar2k Saudi, Turkey and Iran would probably make much better allies than UK and Germany. Since those countries are directly impacted by the conflict, UK and Germany are only capable of drone strikes and are unwilling to join a costly war.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:12:34.4262539Z
@tajshar2k Syria is unwilling and incapable of joining a war against ISIS, Assad can't juggle between fighting the rebels and fighting ISIS. Same can be said with Iraq. And the Kurds are unwilling to fight outside their own territory.
stargate says2015-09-04T23:12:54.9091852Z
All three are unwilling to fight though.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:13:01.2452430Z
UtherPenguin, Never said to get those European countries involved. They have no reason to. I'm saying help the Syrian government. ISIS has been killing thousands of government soldiers, and would definitely act. Saudi Arabia on the other hand, doesn't care. And Turkey think the Kurds are a bigger threat.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:13:38.5270648Z
Syria? No Syria is actually making some effort. But it can't because both the West and ISIS are against them. They are pretty much cornered.
stargate says2015-09-04T23:15:17.2339298Z
Get a new leader, stop killing there own people then we can talk about helping the Syrian goverment.
stargate says2015-09-04T23:16:22.7961178Z
We need Europe, the Syrian goverment is bad, like level 8, 9 bad. We need to do something that something attacking them.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:16:45.0262603Z
@tajshar2k European countries make up a bulk of the coalition, that's why I brought them up. Syria cannot deal with a war against ISIS due to far too much in fighting. Assad has committed so many human rights violations that the US funding them would have caused immediate condemnation by the UN and any potential allies.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:16:49.9471070Z
Stargate, thats exactly how this whole problem started. Al-Assad was Pro Russian therefore the U.S doesn't like him anymore. They try to get him out of power, by funding the Syrian rebels. Most of them become ISIS. So, getting a new leader isn't easy.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:17:55.3515111Z
@tajshar2k Even if Assad wasn't Pro-Russian that does not justify the tyranny under his regime that lead to the rebellion in the first place.
stargate says2015-09-04T23:18:45.7956774Z
Look the Syrian goverment is bad, and not due to Russia helping it though it dose piss me off.
stargate says2015-09-04T23:19:34.7553483Z
I do. Not care about the Russian thing. He has killed far to many people, I want the Syrian goverment gone.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:19:47.9320706Z
@UtherPenguin If thats the case, the U.S would have gone to war with literally every country in the middle-east. All are barbaric devils who are the worst human rights offenders. Right now, with the options we have, the U.S has to make some compensation with Syria, and help them fight ISIS. Obviously, depending on the Saudi's and the Turk's is doing nothing to stop the ISIS advance across the Levant.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:20:15.4872094Z
@stargate And everyone does. Funding Assad would put 4 years of conflict in vain.
stargate says2015-09-04T23:21:05.6103307Z
The only wise option is to send our troops.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T23:21:50.5356142Z
@Tajshar2k No! The U.S. should not help Syria, the country that gassed its own citizens, including children back in 2013. Did you all forget that? Listen, Turkey and Saudi Arabia don't want to get involved, Iran supports ISIS, Iraq is too weak, and Syria's government is evil. Although I don't support the Syrian rebels I can see where there coming from, The Syrian government is corrupt and kills its own people. Not to mention the all of those Syrian refugees fleeing the war torn nation to try and find some comfort in Germany. Europe doesn't want to do anything either. The only option, the only solution, is for the United States of America to directly intervene and stop ISIS before they reach considerable military strength.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:22:12.1577686Z
UtherPenguin, the whole trying to get Assad out of power as failed. We the Americans screwed up, and gave weapons to the Rebels. Now we have ISIS. Who is worse? ISIS or Al-Assad? I'd say Al-Assad.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:23:19.9571070Z
I meant ISIS.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:24:17.4915607Z
@tajshar2k " thats the case, the U.S would have gone to war with literally every country in the middle-east. All are barbaric devils who are the worst human rights offenders" This is BS beyond comprehension. You have made such a huge generalization/stereotype to make your argument that I can't even reply to this properly.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:24:26.3056082Z
Well, it's either helping Syria or the Yanks are going to war, which will last another 6 years, along with thousands of U.S troops dead, 100k civilians dead, and billions of dollars wasted.
stargate says2015-09-04T23:24:42.5453213Z
No it was the free Syrian army or what ever it is called. It is not Isis, they where rebels we trained back in the soviet era, after 911 a lot of those groups turned on us.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T23:25:27.0067646Z
We need boots on the ground...
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:26:33.4488682Z
UtherPenguin, Are you going to pretend countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Iran are all nice guys who never have violated human rights?
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T23:27:12.8866794Z
ISIS is definetly worse than Al - Assad. At least the corrupt government doesn't;t behead people and put their faces on friggin Instagram. Bunch of barbaric pricks, the terrorists are.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:27:49.4072158Z
@tajshar2k Have you really done meticulous research on Turkey, Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, Jordan, Egypt, Sudan, Libya,Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates to say that all Middle Eastern countries are barbaric? That's not only BS, that's racist.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:27:52.8977415Z
Literally every country, with Turkey, Israel and the UAEl as an exception has violated basic human rights.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:29:08.9950293Z
UtherPenguin, Okay, let me compile a whole list, I'll be back with you. And no, I'm not racist thank you very much.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:30:27.5571329Z
@tajshar2k "UtherPenguin, Are you going to pretend countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Iran are all nice guys who never have violated human rights?" And are you really going to pretend that all Middle Eastern countries are barbaric?
stargate says2015-09-04T23:31:15.1140902Z
We still need help......
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:31:33.3353574Z
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Middle_East Wikipedia has a whole page dedicated to the crimes these countries have committed against humanity.
stargate says2015-09-04T23:31:39.5515944Z
We need allies.....
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:32:17.1634355Z
Ok, I take it back. I don't mean 100%. More like 80% of the countries. Happy now?
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T23:32:19.3877382Z
I just realized, before we put boots on the ground, we need to take care of Syria first. Al - Assad has to go.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:33:25.6166743Z
And don't you dare pull out the race card. I have never been racist to anybody in my life, and intend to keep it that way. Pointing out countries in the middle east have committed crimes, is apparently racist now.
stargate says2015-09-04T23:33:45.9124044Z
Yep
stargate says2015-09-04T23:41:36.9262237Z
Isis is the one that we trained durning the cold war, free strain army is the group we sorta help here and there.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:42:41.5004894Z
@tajshar If you accuse an entire region (doesn't matter where) of the world of being barbaric then I'm going to pull the race card, since that ends up making huge generalizations.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:45:40.9674910Z
I took that back, I really just meant most countries. It's not a generalization. I provided a source.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:46:30.1087510Z
Okay.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:47:27.9394338Z
But are you going to deny that "most" countries in the middle-east are human rights offenders?
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:48:37.8604266Z
If its just like 2 countries, and I'm just making stuff up, I can see why somebody would be angry. But its not the case, literally all are according to my source atleast.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:49:38.8423902Z
Most*
UtherPenguin says2015-09-04T23:50:50.6042302Z
@tajshar2k They have that page (on human rights) basically every country. Sure half or a quarter of the countries may commit large offenses, but I would not be willing to compare all of them to Assad.
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:54:06.3892502Z
Ok, let me get back on topic. It's either we go to war, or we make a deal with Al-Assad to help him fight ISIS. Its literally the only to viable things to do. Doing nothing used to be my position, but thats me assuming ISIS will remain a domestic threat.
TeenagerX says2015-09-04T23:57:14.3740702Z
Go to war
tajshar2k says2015-09-04T23:58:28.6319742Z
And enter another decade long struggle?
stargate says2015-09-04T23:58:36.2991581Z
Ready the drums of war
stargate says2015-09-04T23:59:18.7782304Z
It we have to yes.
TBR says2015-09-04T23:59:53.6385538Z
Very sorry to see the threshold for preemptive war has been set so low.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-05T00:00:30.0550873Z
@tajshar2k In order for ISIS to be a major threat to countries abroad, they would have to first consolidated their territories in Syria and Iraq, as well as driving out the Syrians and the Iraqis. This is very unlikely however, even if the US doesn't do anything. They simply do not yet have the capacity to actually overthrow governments. This means they'll likely remain a domestic threat.
tajshar2k says2015-09-05T00:00:43.5598338Z
Ya, same here...
stargate says2015-09-05T00:01:42.0339487Z
What do you mean?
tajshar2k says2015-09-05T00:02:28.8313330Z
@Utherpenguin Not as an army, but what ISIS has been successful at doing, is getting muslims to join their cause globally. If they can get other's to do their work for them abroad, then its already a big threat.
tajshar2k says2015-09-05T00:03:27.4576362Z
@Utherpenguin Same reason Al-Qaeda become a global threat.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-05T00:06:31.6654053Z
@tajshar2k I'm not necessarily against war, what I'm against is the US taking the initiative in said war. As the potential that regional powers have to combat ISIS is being mostly ignored, even if said countries are unwilling to fight.
tajshar2k says2015-09-05T00:08:09.3220313Z
UtherPenguin, I don't want the U.S to enter any land force. My point is regional powers such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey aren't willing to do anything useful. Syria on the other hand, might help us, because in my opinion ISIS is far worse than Al-Asad.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-05T00:13:27.0804682Z
@tajshar2k Even if the Syrians are willing they aren't capable. The Syrians are doing even worse off than Iraq, since the Syrians were devastated by civil war before ISIS even happeds. Syria is simply too unstable to land an attack against ISIS.
tajshar2k says2015-09-05T00:47:43.4700501Z
@UtherPenguin Don't see why it isn't worth a try. Syria is alot more desperate.
Midnight1131 says2015-09-05T00:48:59.8169395Z
But they're not capable.
tajshar2k says2015-09-05T00:49:51.3752700Z
They might be. Their army isn't crippled. It still stands.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-05T00:50:00.8808606Z
@taJshar2k Think, of all the forces in the region, Syria is the most divided, the most unstable and has been locked in conflict for the longest. Even the Kurds would make a better ally, and they don't even have a country.
Midnight1131 says2015-09-05T00:52:06.1601340Z
The Kurds are actually the best ally we have there, unlike others they're actually fighting ISIS on the ground.
tajshar2k says2015-09-05T00:52:21.4014317Z
I added the option.
Renegader says2015-09-05T16:17:56.8823920Z
Wow, the amount of people who voted for ground troops is scary to me.
BIGC says2015-09-05T16:47:21.1415742Z
Isis is one of the bigest threats to america today, they have cells in mexico, Canada and the US, if we don't do something now they will.
tajshar2k says2015-09-05T18:32:54.0362965Z
The amount of people who voted to do nothing is even scarier.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-05T18:34:59.6795019Z
The amount of people that voted for the "doge" option is the most frightening.
TBR says2015-09-05T19:15:58.6296643Z
If you mean the do nothing option UtherPenguin. I was the proud first voter. I would offer safe haven. I would support dealing openly and honestly with whatever stable governments of the middle-east emerge, but I will never support one more US dollar, life, or second of care for the insane folly that is US intervention in that hell. Find someone else to "help".
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-05T19:19:57.4827954Z
Ya, but you do realize if we do nothing ISIS will be at our doorstep eventually right?
TBR says2015-09-05T19:23:58.0519375Z
RIght....
UtherPenguin says2015-09-05T19:27:32.8341143Z
@TBR I'm talking about the guy that voted this option: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000822867536/3f5a00acf72df93528b6bb7cd0a4fd0c.jpeg I mean honestly, we all know doge secretly supports ISIS, so why support doge?
TBR says2015-09-05T19:30:06.8695017Z
Got it. OK.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-05T19:31:24.4635606Z
As you can see here Doge is obviously swearing is allegiance to Al-Baghdadi : https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000822867536/3f5a00acf72df93528b6bb7cd0a4fd0c.jpeg
TBR says2015-09-05T19:31:39.3780947Z
Anything is more rational than the same old "they are going to GET US if we don't get them first" thing again, like The_American_Sniper said.
globalpeace says2015-09-05T20:40:10.3555838Z
Isis is a problem for all the world. U.S has to fight isis with the help of all other countries.
TBR says2015-09-05T22:44:12.2349978Z
Tell me EXACTLY how ISIS is a problem for the entire world. I have never herd such exaggeration... Well since Iraq exaggeration
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-05T22:58:58.8525310Z
TBR, please open your eyes. You see guys who hate America to the core, behead American Journalists, say they will destroy America, and you are 100% sure they will never do anything to the U.S. Ok then.
Renegader says2015-09-05T23:00:26.7187345Z
This paranoid "strike-or-die" fantasy is quite vexing. If other nations want to front the bill for their own involvement, so be it. We have already had extensive involvement in the region and squandered too many lives and dollars.
TBR says2015-09-05T23:05:51.6844176Z
@The_American_Sniper - People hate each other. Get over it. It doesn't mean its a good idea to crank-up the war machine that MAKES PEOPLE HATE US again. Just chill a bit.
PericIes says2015-09-05T23:08:20.7165374Z
Give the Kurds money and supplies and tell Turkey to stop fucking with them.
Renegader says2015-09-05T23:23:49.2457250Z
Wait is the filter down again????
PericIes says2015-09-05T23:29:18.3583838Z
The motherfucking cock-sucking filter must be the fuck down, by golly.
TBR says2015-09-05T23:31:03.2086722Z
^^^
TBR says2015-09-05T23:34:22.0669710Z
Now, back to those assholes in ISIS. No, I don't give a rats ass about them. They are not any more a threat than any of the other groups we have managed to piss-off over the last 70 years. Lop a head off? Think that has never been done before? Hell, WE do that every day, just with cooler tech. Leave the hell that is the ME alone to rot or figure it out for themselves. We are out!
PericIes says2015-09-05T23:38:18.8420993Z
Eh, I wouldn't leave it alone entirely. Can't let a country that advocates genocide get a nuke. :P
TBR says2015-09-05T23:42:16.1163258Z
How do you see ISIS getting a nuke?
PericIes says2015-09-05T23:55:25.0285538Z
I was actually referring to Iran. You said that we should leave the Middle East alone, and Iran is in the Middle East.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-06T00:17:48.2541946Z
You can see they are radicalizing muslims across the globe, how about before they expand their influence, we help wipe them out? I'm not supporting sending ground troops.Atleast help the Kurds who are fighting ISIS for us.
TBR says2015-09-06T00:20:16.9260066Z
@PericIes - I know you were. That is a discussion to itself, but I am over the top with speaking in terms like "We can't allow". These aren't out countries. Time for us to learn that, and get the hell out of their business. That is what they want, ask for, and a big part of the reason we are a target. Leave them alone.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T00:21:11.8445928Z
The U.S isn't going to war, by helping the Kurds. It seems like a logical choice.
TBR says2015-09-06T00:21:46.6283066Z
@The_American_Sniper - Can you show me where this has worked? Can you show me where we are not the cause of this radicalization? Can you point to just one instance where success has come from intervention?
PericIes says2015-09-06T00:22:30.3130958Z
Lol, alright, I guess the Holocaust was fine because it was Germany's business. That's cool.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-06T00:23:03.8190858Z
Sure. WW2, Korean War. There I gave you examples.
stargate says2015-09-06T00:53:48.2543778Z
Yet when we helped other groups before they turned into terrorist cells, how do we know the Kurds will not be the same?
stargate says2015-09-06T00:54:30.0302016Z
We have no idea who we can trust there. Plus if we help the kurds, the turks will not help as at all.
stargate says2015-09-06T00:55:20.8865276Z
Also we have funded other rebel groups before =, but they are now all terrorists cells for the most part. How do we know that will not happen if we fund them?
TBR says2015-09-06T00:55:32.1029995Z
I have no issue with you using WWII, however we were speaking of the ME. So, let me be clear. Where has our intervention in the ME produced any results? We could bicker about exactly how BAD WWII messed up the ME, but that is a side discussion.
stargate says2015-09-06T00:56:16.8752865Z
We can not sit back and do nothing. I am disported to see that is what most people think, that way of thinking will get us into more trouble then you would think.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T00:56:51.6407348Z
Because... The Kurd's are like Palestinians. They fight for their homeland, not their religion. It's that or Al-Assad. Not willing to spend a single drop of American blood.
TBR says2015-09-06T00:58:08.0727993Z
@stargate - The trouble you speak of stem from our very attempts to intervene.
stargate says2015-09-06T00:58:53.2662890Z
I am willing to make that choice, call me a war hawk. But we need to be willing and ready to fight for what is right, and what needs to be done. We can not sit back and allow them to do whatever they want. You might hate this fact, but peace is kept by showing you are willing to use your power, and have the power and will to stop them.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:00:22.4832609Z
Look there is no way to know what would the world be like if we didn't do anything in Iraq. But remember our unwillingness to enter WW1, and WW2. Many lives where lost due to us not willing to make that sacrifice.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:01:16.1944052Z
We need to go to war, and get allies. Honestly I do not care if it is the Turks, Europeans, or kurds. We need to stop them now rather then latter.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:03:01.4512637Z
Nazi's were actually a threat to the world. Why? Because they wanted to take over the world. Here is what we are doing in the middle east. We are becoming friends with a guy, making him powerful, we overlook all the atrocities that he commits because he's our friend, and when he doesn't something he doesn't like, we point out all the crap he did before, and use that to go war. Its like pouring water on the ground on purpose, and wiping it.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:04:05.5249721Z
*when he does something we don't like
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-06T01:06:43.7337047Z
Well, we went to Afghanistan and got the Taliban out of power. We were morally justified as well.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:09:04.3778951Z
I actually think the U.S purposely goes into the Middle-East to screw shit up. Why? Well, letting the rules in the middle-east become powerful could possibly hurt our oil business, which will hurt the West. Its an interesting theory, but it makes sense.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:10:38.9524126Z
*rulers
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:12:04.1133585Z
The whole "we must stop brutal tyrants" is complete BS. If it's the case, why haven't we done anything to Saudi Arabia? Its literally the worst country regarding Human Rights. Apart from gassing it's own citizens, I can say the Saudi regime is worse than any Baathist out there.
Varrack says2015-09-06T01:15:38.8098815Z
@tajshar2k, your argument is an is/ought fallacy. Just because the U.S. hasn't done anything with Saudi Arabia does not mean the U.S. doesn't have an obligation to topple tyrants and despots.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:17:17.3881772Z
Yes, but I'm questioning what the real reason for toppling the dictator is for.
Varrack says2015-09-06T01:18:06.5603228Z
Don't know how that turned into a triple negative, but basically what I said is that lack of action =/= right course to take, which Taj is assuming for some reason.
TBR says2015-09-06T01:19:34.2542440Z
Varrack - What gives us license to topple ANY dictator?
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:20:38.7568496Z
All I'm saying is that, our decisions haven't been consistent throughout, if we were to use "toppling brutal dicators" as the main reason.
Varrack says2015-09-06T01:21:35.6542222Z
@TBR - licenses don't have any value in the course of global events. It's either you do something, or you don't. Not "are we allowed to?"
TBR says2015-09-06T01:22:36.6974135Z
You want to use Afghanistan as a success story? If that is success, I think any action in Syria is ludicrous.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:22:46.7126777Z
@TBR Nobody gave us the license to go to war with Japan or Germany.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:22:58.2547322Z
So we should just quit and head home. We should disable the 800+ foreign military bases, we should stop sending so many troops abord. We shouldn't stop these bad dictators from killing there own people, we should just give up and call it quits. No, after WW2 we made a comitment. We would never aging not be in a alliance, that we would never aging back down from helping those in need, that we would spread freedom to all parts of the world, that we wouldn't back down from a fight. After WW2 and until Obama came into office we thought a strong foreign policy equals a strong domestic policy. We need to look at history, and learn from the mistakes of being unwilling to fight for what is right.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:24:11.3577571Z
@stargate Regarding the Foreign Bases, what exactly is the point of a U.S base in Germany?
TBR says2015-09-06T01:24:13.0894015Z
I don't deny (as I said above) the successes of WWII. We were however attacked, AND our allies were at war. The Situation is not a direct analog.
Varrack says2015-09-06T01:24:48.0810987Z
We're not consistent because we vote in different presidents and Congresses who decide our actions. We're consistent in certain areas like Afghanistan, but with Obama in office there's no way we'd still be sticking around Iraq.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:24:57.6131168Z
Wetsern Europe, Japan, south korea, and many others.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:26:33.0405899Z
@TBR That's not the question, you said we need a license to topple dictators. We don't need any license.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:26:38.1713614Z
NATO, plus they want it there. I will tell you something, we never leave a military base usually once we make it. Even if the reason it was made is no longer here. But they want it there so we keep it.
TBR says2015-09-06T01:27:30.1692547Z
@Varrack - You need to justify preemptive war. Our history is crap on "military actions", but aside from Bush, we have been very clear on this score.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-06T01:27:51.3545979Z
@Stargate Except it practically useless, and it's our tax-money that is being wasted. As a libertarian, I'm against this nonsense.
TBR says2015-09-06T01:28:52.7534241Z
@tajshar2k - Yes we do. We are not (at least by our word) aggressors. We need an actual reason to do this. Being "frightened" is not good enough.
Varrack says2015-09-06T01:30:41.9605723Z
@tajshar2k - I can't believe that you think the only reason the US has been involved in the Middle East is because of oil. Do you recognize the many justifications that exist for going into there? There's not only dictators but an engine of terrorism that will only get stronger if the world powers decide to go on vacation.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:30:45.5265470Z
My point is we are see as the world police. We are seen as if you do something bad, we are the final say if you get punished usually. Because no one else is willing to do it. Sometimes there are things worth fighting for, in this case a safer better world. An world where everyone is free, where slavery is gone, a world where wars are no longer necessary. A world that is untied under one banner, that banner being a symbol of hope freedom and the lives that where sacrificed to make this world.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:30:46.3286843Z
But, literally knowing a terrorist group could very likely attack us and not doing anything, is nuts. In WW2, we never knew Japan would bomb Pearl Harbor.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:32:17.3175354Z
We need to attack them, before they get even bigger and stronger. Because we are unfortunately the only ones willing to do something about the situation.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:33:32.1044148Z
If we do nothing now on in every conflict more people will die, more wars will happen, more chaos. We need to do something.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:33:38.9315099Z
@Varrack I never said oil was the only reason. Where did I say that? I agree Radical Islam must be fought against, but making a dictator our friend, then when he doesn't like us anymore, isn't a good reason to go to war with him.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-06T01:34:27.0791672Z
@stargate Do you have that copied and pasted somewhere? Literally I see you type that every single time.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:36:24.2515183Z
I understand if you feel cheated by Iraq and Afghanistan and still remember vitname and all the people we have killed in the name of freedom. But you enjoy these freedoms that you and me have. So is it so wrong to try to create a better place for all of humanity. Look at our flag and remember the lives lost fighting for our freedom, and the ability to say proudly I am an american.
BIGC says2015-09-06T01:36:26.9946191Z
Isis has cells in the us they are a danger to us now and will be until we wipe them out.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:37:26.3867166Z
No I do not, it is just a point I always try to make.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:37:56.7913115Z
I'm even Pro military intervention, but especially regarding Iraq, I don't believe the Bush administration went in solely to topple Baathist Iraq. Or that was the #1 reason to invade Iraq. I can of course take the government's word for it, but I don't think our government is the most honest.
TBR says2015-09-06T01:39:04.0594463Z
@stargate - If your plan for peace were obtainable the US would put the blood and treasure into it. It is a losing bet, and we have more than enough data to make that call at this point. We are not the right tool for this job. We should provide the humanitarian roll, and not the military roll.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-06T01:39:23.4810672Z
What??! We going to Vietnam was pointless. Beyond pointless. Even if we did nothing, Vietnam wouldn't have attacked us. There isn't any reason.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:39:27.0222899Z
Okay here are some reasons human right violation ISIS, and the syrain government. ISIS destroying ancient ruins, ISIS allowing slavery to thrive under there rule, ISIS killing andone not Islamic, need I go on I have a lot more reasons.
BIGC says2015-09-06T01:39:34.1983359Z
I am pro military if they continue to grow.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:40:13.5417881Z
They will at this rate.....
BIGC says2015-09-06T01:41:11.4805595Z
I know that is why wee need military action on Isis and Iran NOW, not later!
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:42:10.3709370Z
Ok, my fellow war hawks. Say we destroy Iran. What next?
BIGC says2015-09-06T01:44:19.1029622Z
Think of the next generation if we don't go hit Iran, it could turn into WWW3 with nukes being used
BIGC says2015-09-06T01:45:29.1162110Z
But after we take out there oppressive government, we help them with aid until they can get back on there feet.
BIGC says2015-09-06T01:45:52.4539606Z
But if they don't want us then we leave
BIGC says2015-09-06T01:46:41.6098757Z
Israel will help us to, with aid and a war, they don't want Iran to get a nuke
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:47:51.3529663Z
Israel has never helped us militarily.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:48:24.7378223Z
No, I do not want WW3. If we attack Iran Russia and China will attack. Then due to defense treatys all NATO nations will be forced into the war. Then many other nations. I agree with a lot of things you guys say I am opened minded. It is just I can justify my reasons, I also think it needs to be done so I will continue to say what needs to be said untilthe end of time.
BIGC says2015-09-06T01:48:38.7978269Z
Here is why we need to attack Iran: If we look at most nuclear powers, like Russia. Every time it came down to eliminating the enemy or surviving, they would choose there own survive. But you have to look at Iran's morals, they call the US the devil, and in order to kill us they have helped (with financial aid) the terrorists who blew up the twin towers on 9-11, they walk onto a bus with a back pack full of bombs and blow themselves up with out second thought. If they were to get a nuke, they would not care what the west would do back, they would use it on the US or Israel. The Iran Nuclear deal is not stopping Iran from getting a bomb, it is just taking time, time that we don't have. The UN, as much as i don't like them, said back in 2013, Iran could have a bomb by that fall, fall of 2013, it is now 2015, almost 2016 and we still have not stopped Iran from enriching Uranium. We have not even tried to stop them in the shadows. Israel has killed 6 of Iran's top nuclear scientists, they put a virus on there main frame and stopped them from enriching for months, they also blew a power plant that they were using to build a secret underground facility that when it is done, Iran will be "immune" all there enriching will go deep underground, and at that point we would have to send in ground troops to stop them. The Iran deal is not what we need, we need to find a different way to stop them, and if the time comes war, because if we don't they will.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:48:39.6986059Z
They have their own problems.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:49:30.5247091Z
We help them, also they have helped us.
BIGC says2015-09-06T01:49:37.2202014Z
Israel will attack Iran if we don't, if we did they would gladly help us.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:50:54.0180499Z
I understand but we simply can not do it. I do not want War world 3. If that happens then we all die...
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T01:50:57.5593407Z
Tell me one incident where Israel has helped us? Iraq? No Afghanistan? No Syria? No
BIGC says2015-09-06T01:52:41.9565856Z
That is because they have not been hell bent on destroying them like Iran is. If you have been listening to Israels prim minister, he does not want war but he knows that it might be the only way
Varrack says2015-09-06T01:55:40.1565279Z
BIGC actually has a point. If we leave Israel and the Middle East to itself, national freelancing will happen. The lack of the involvement of the U.S. will cause nations to believe that they can handle things themselves, and will go invade as they wish, which will simply cause more war. There's historical examples for this.
stargate says2015-09-06T01:56:15.5266935Z
Being a foothold in the middle east for one, supplying us with info. They have helped us it is just we help them a lot more. They are good people, there army is great. The reason they didn't help us in the war was due to them having other promblems.
tajshar2k says2015-09-06T02:00:00.8809992Z
I don't support doing nothing in the middle-east. We should avoid war when possible. I don't believe we need to go to war with Iran. We just established a deal. Also, what next? What will we do after we topple the Iranian government?
BIGC says2015-09-06T02:05:37.6091577Z
Read my long post, we need to do something more than the deal we have now to stop Iran. If we don't Israel will.
stargate says2015-09-06T02:18:39.0955431Z
I do not want war with Iran, if we attack them Russia and China will attack us. Trus ww3 will start, let me just tell you something. Look at WW1 and WW2, look at the technology levels, look at the tactics used, look at how many people died, look at how far apart they where. We simply can not invade Iran without billions of people dieing as a result. For once I can not justify the use pf military force.
BIGC says2015-09-06T02:24:55.3861793Z
As i keep telling you, its not up to us it is up to Israel, Israel will attack even if we don't, it is not up to us, or the US. The real question is whether we will help.
BIGC says2015-09-06T02:25:56.8973736Z
And i am not saying an all out war, we could just use special op teams and take out high valued targets.
BIGC says2015-09-06T02:26:45.3200840Z
Just like Israel is already doing
stargate says2015-09-06T12:23:45.7062970Z
Maybe, as long as war dosn't happen.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-06T13:18:54.2079282Z
I highly doubt Israel would attack Iran. They know Iran is more powerful than them. The prime minister isn't that dumb.
BIGC says2015-09-06T18:56:34.7906170Z
Have you been paying attentions to Israels prim minister? He will declare war on Iran if the time comes, read up on him.
Heterodox says2015-09-07T18:17:44.9698936Z
We haven't been to war since WWII. However, we should just turn that entire region into glass.
stargate says2015-09-07T18:32:56.9038668Z
What country are you talking about? Um no that would be counted as genocide.
FrozenLichBox says2015-09-07T20:13:19.8216750Z
The question is, then, what do you do about a widespread religion that preaches the death of those who don't convert? I think genocide, in this case, is justified, because their religious doctrine is genocidal in nature, and must be removed from this Earth.
PericIes says2015-09-07T20:34:57.8469876Z
@FrozenLichBox Actually, non-Muslims can live in Muslim theocracies if they pay a Jizra tax.
stargate says2015-09-07T21:58:21.4820700Z
Yeah but that tax is unfair.
stargate says2015-09-07T22:00:14.3175933Z
Maybe it ineeded.
PericIes says2015-09-07T22:10:11.3530840Z
It's unfair, I agree. I was merely pointing out a factual error.
stargate says2015-09-07T22:47:35.1130571Z
Um.... But killing them all would make us no better then them. I understand why going to war in the middle east is necessary so I support it. But we can not do a mass genocide of all people fellowing Islam in the middle east.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-07T23:13:03.6872019Z
@stargate Actually that tax (Jizya) is only %2 of a person's income. And it's only towards male non-muslims, females and minors are exempt from it.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-07T23:17:16.2820003Z
@FrozenLich In no case is Genocide ever acceptable,
stargate says2015-09-08T00:30:04.6552233Z
True, but the tax is unfair. But not worth fighting over, also genocide is well a bit extreme.
Mharman says2016-11-14T14:24:45.7250675Z
We need to bomb the living s*** out of ISIS. By the time Trump is done with them, they'll be WASWAS.
AncientBlade says2018-10-30T03:52:57.4276604Z
Nuke the living shit outta them

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