Who is more to blame for the troubles in the middle east?

Posted by: tajshar2k

This isn't a black or white answer, but who do you think is more responsible?

  • America

  • Islam

39% 16 votes
61% 25 votes
  • I'm definitely not blaming Islam, neither am I blaming the Americans (poll is too black and white), I would blame European colonialism. And I guess the America option is the closest I could get to that.

  • I place most of the blame on America. As far as Iraq is concerned, we are the terrorists. More Iraqi civilians died and displaced since the invasion than Americans who were killed on 9/11.

  • well they have invaded most of it.

  • United States eagerly destroyed Iraq for oil, supported Israel to occupy Palestine, created ISIS, encouraged double standard media, got involved in Libya, worsened Syria situation in name of "world peace". America is literally related to every conflict regarding the Middle East, blaming Islamic terrorists (ISIS) that got out of control, all of that for America’s profit. Yet, people still believe Islam is the root of all evil. I want to point out that no Muslim would kill a human being, let alone another Muslim. This is insane, like people believe Muslims would like to kill each other, live in conflicts, destroy their countries and eventually die. It doesn’t make sense. Whether you hate Muslims or not, if the media starts to shed lights on one side, you’ve got to start doubting it.

  • It truly began with the United Kingdom

  • Fuck American Foreign Politics. Thats all ive got to say, sry m8

    Posted by: Bequem
  • This one actually took me a while to decide, but radical Islam has been effecting the middle east for a longer period of time than US involvement.

  • Radical Islam that is.

  • No brainer.

  • If you wake up every morning, walk into the kitchen, turn the water on in the sink, and leave it run continuously until it is time for bed, sending your monthly water bills through the roof; when you move out and the new tenant moves in, can you blame the new guy for your water bills? No. If you come home from work one night, chug a bottle of vodka, then immediately head back to your car for a beer run, ending with you running your car at full speed into a brick wall; can you blame the guy that built the wall or first responders for not being there before you crashed to stop you from hitting the wall? No. It's your own darn fault, now stand up like a big boy and take responsibility.

  • Radical islam is the direct cause but ultimately it was US and Soviet interventionism which led to a large amount of that extremism.

  • The tenets of radical Islam are to blame. We are to blame for jumping into the middle of what was not our problem and believing that people would actually appreciate it. Let the middle east do what it will do. Eventually they will take care of the problem themselves. They might not be what we consider 'better off" but their choice.

  • The Muslim religion may be peaceful sometimes, but they have committed countless unprovoked attacks.

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TBR says2015-09-12T16:04:22.8729294Z
Yea, this is overly simplistic, but forcing you into the binary is sometimes helpful.
TBR says2015-09-12T16:28:11.0120717Z
If you said "west" vs Islam, that might be enough to change my vote.
tajshar2k says2015-09-12T16:29:24.1266990Z
Why would you change it?
TBR says2015-09-12T16:32:47.1410739Z
Why would "the west" potentially change the vote? Well, France, and UK both were very bad actors in the Middle East. Both WWI and WWII had plenty to do with the troubles of the area.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T17:24:29.0064999Z
I'd say the Sykes Picot Agreement. Since Colonialists drew the borders of the Middle East, Not Middle Easterners themselves. If Islam was the problem then the Middle East would have been violent for 1400 years, but it's not. Much of the problems in the Middle East can be traced back to the Sykes Picot Agreement at the end of WWI.
TBR says2015-09-12T17:34:38.6316332Z
@UtherPenguin - I agree. That is what I am getting at. The UK and France (not JUST as referenced above) have done more mucking about in the M.E. Than the US. Now, we are working our way to beating the record for most... Destructive to the M.E., but I would give the title to the French, with the U.K. close second, Italy distant third UNTIL the US entered the game to show them all how it is done.
tajshar2k says2015-09-12T17:41:53.2972759Z
The middle east has been violent even before the crusades.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T17:44:53.5251748Z
Islam is the reason for their troubles. If the religion wasn't so violent, then groups wouldn't even have the idea of radical Islam. America came in and messed up things even more, but it was messing something up that was already messed up.
Haroush says2015-09-12T18:35:30.2094406Z
TAS, At what point did America come and mess up things? When we took out Saddam Hussein? Or when we went looking for weapons of mass destruction? Was it wrong for us to go looking for Osama Bin Laden?
TBR says2015-09-12T18:37:26.2759347Z
@tajshar2k - So too was Europe. North and south America. That is not a good argument.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T18:38:49.0672575Z
@TasJohar and was Europe not violent before and during the Crusades? The Middle East was not facing the same types of conflicts then as it does now. Neither was the region as unstable then as it is now. The only part of the middle east that was unstable during the Crusades was Palestine, Anatolia and Egypt and Egypt barely saw any conflict until the 3rd Crusade. Which might I add was a conflict that the Europeans started.
Haroush says2015-09-12T18:39:54.4439344Z
I thought religion was the reason for most wars?
TBR says2015-09-12T18:40:35.9611983Z
@Haroush - We have been messing with them since the Barbary wars. Where we really got involved was WWII and immediately after. When the British and French got out, we got in. We proxy battled the USSR, we were there for resources, let's not forget Israel. It's not JUST our complete disasters of the last couple decades, it is a long impressive resume of messing with the place.
Haroush says2015-09-12T18:42:50.9746660Z
So the United States shouldn't have aided Israel during WW2?
TBR says2015-09-12T18:43:26.7231767Z
@Haroush - Well I voted for Islam on this poll, and stick with it. As I said, if you include western world, then the poll shifts for me, but as it stands, Islam has more to blame.
tajshar2k says2015-09-12T18:44:47.1954110Z
Woah, hang on a sec. You said earlier "If Islam was the problem then the Middle East would have been violent for 1400 years" I'm saying, it was violent. Who's talking about Europe now? I never said Europe was peaceful.
TBR says2015-09-12T18:45:22.5296375Z
"So the United States shouldn't have aided Israel during WW2?" - Not saying that, but it is undoubtedly a cause for friction in the M.E.
Haroush says2015-09-12T18:46:32.2620845Z
Let us not forget if you don't have rules and regulations which aren't enforced including the use of violence when needed, then you will not maintain peace.
TBR says2015-09-12T18:46:55.9118361Z
@tajshar2k - I did say they were peaceful ever. I am saying that using the argument that the M.E. Was violent is not a good argument, as all contents have been violent. The M.E. Is not unique in that regards.
Haroush says2015-09-12T18:48:44.8473344Z
It is a cause for friction? They were backed in a corner with threats all around just like today as it stands. They are a key ally to us and we should keep them as our most important ally in the middle east.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T18:49:04.2226586Z
Ya, the U.S gave Saddam money and power in which he later became a tyrant. When Saddam no longer wanted to listen anymore, the U.S tried to find a reason to take him out. Bush lied about the WMDs, so thats settled. We are justified in going to Afghanistan, but we let the war drag on forever. Never said anything about Jews. Helping them doesn't equal supporting them for everything, including them killing civilians.
tajshar2k says2015-09-12T18:50:39.0400664Z
Ok, I wasn't denying anything you said. I was correcting what Uther said. He was saying the middle east wasn't violent 1400 years ago. Which is wrong.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T18:51:24.6235586Z
Israel backed us? Where? Iraq? Afghanistan? Vietnam? Where?
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T18:52:00.7689903Z
Conservatives will tell you "oh they had their own problems' We also have our own problems. Everybody has their own problems.
Haroush says2015-09-12T18:52:34.6836077Z
Is mustard gas considered a WMD?
TBR says2015-09-12T18:54:12.9018373Z
@tajshar2k - I thought you had it straight, just making sure.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T18:56:23.8178765Z
Did Saddam have possession of it when we were going to war?
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T18:56:38.6618823Z
@Taj shark you said the Middle East was violent since the Crusades, that's WHY I brought up Europe , because only a small region within the MENA was home to any actual conflict during the Crusades.
triangle.128k says2015-09-12T18:58:15.6237932Z
Allahu Ackbar!
Haroush says2015-09-12T18:59:54.2944257Z
Yes he did.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:00:38.6767102Z
Which is what Bush told us, which turned out to be a lie. He admits it later.
TBR says2015-09-12T19:00:59.1729619Z
The WMD mess has been put to bed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Recovered_chemical_weapons Please don't try to dilute this thread.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:01:05.4911239Z
I meant to say tajshar, not shark. Freaking auto correct
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:01:29.3770352Z
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/dec/14/usa.iraq1 This isn't liberal bias.
TBR says2015-09-12T19:04:16.6569075Z
@UtherPenguin - I said it of Europe, I say it of the M.E. The place had plenty of fighting. Times of peace and war are shared among all people of the planet. I do think that there has been barbarism in the M.E. For a very long time, as there WAS on other continents. For the most part, the western world has moved past most of the internal bickering, focusing on acquisition, and now moving past that into... Well, that's hard to say in a poll post.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:09:29.5325131Z
Still I believe Islam is a major reason for it's downfall. Look at Iran, a very Western country, after being taken by religious nutjobs, it is one of the worst human rights offenders.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:12:40.8165523Z
@Theameticansniper The reason Iran has its current government was 8n response to a brutal dictatorship, a dictator that the US dilebrarly put t9 power. Iran actually was a democracy before the US and UK disposed if that government replacing it 20th a Shah
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:13:43.3429555Z
Correction. Replaced *with a Shah. Die in a hole auto correct.
triangle.128k says2015-09-12T19:14:27.3828847Z
@UtherPenguin But didn't the british empire manipulate the US into thinking that Iran was communist at the time?
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:15:10.3307859Z
Also, the Islamic Revolution in Iran was lead by the people, they wanted that type of government as opposed to a Western-puppet dictator
TBR says2015-09-12T19:15:13.0311150Z
@The_American_Sniper - I agree with this point. But... Iran is a good model for our problems messing with them. We, not a conspiracy, orchestrated the overthrow of the PM, then we back a Shah (yea we did this) that leads to Khomeini coming back. Lets not forget, that we LATER sold them arms to fight Iraq (Reagun cough cough)... The religion sucks, but we got a percentage in there too.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:17:12.0919079Z
@triangle Nope, all Iran wanted to do was nationalise it's oil industry.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:18:01.4809948Z
I know, I'm talking about before U.S intervention. Also, the government they wanted is the worst of the worst. So, I don't really feel bad for them. They got what they asked for. Brutal religious tyrants.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:20:53.3211803Z
@TheAmericanSniper Iran had a Western styles democracy before the US installed the Shah.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:22:01.8161354Z
"I know, I'm talking about before U.S intervention." I said that already.
tajshar2k says2015-09-12T19:26:03.8783431Z
The original reason for U.S intervention is oil, but the reason for it going to war in Afghanistan was because of terrorists, and to an extent Islam. The Hadith talks about rocks tell muslims to kill jews.
TBR says2015-09-12T19:27:26.5604631Z
@UtherPenguin - You and I tend to agree on a lot of this stuff. The place where we bicker is on the role of religion. Are you unwilling to accept, or place, and blame on the religion?
tajshar2k says2015-09-12T19:27:42.5040719Z
If muslims didn't hate Jews as much, a lot of issues would be solved.
TBR says2015-09-12T19:29:17.6509115Z
I mean, can you completely deny the Sunni vs. Shia schism that has existed for... Well I have no idea! Thousand plus years? Could be 2000, I don't know.
Oreo222 says2015-09-12T19:34:59.6527215Z
It's the result of Western interference in the Middle East and the radicalization of a handful of Muslims.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:35:21.9046511Z
@tajshar Muslims hating Jews? Historically, Muslims were the most tolerant to the Jews. When the Moors ruled Spain Jews peacefully coexisted with Muslims. The first place the Jees fled to when the Spanish Inquisition started was Ottoman territory, a Muslim country. Anti Zionism in no way correlates with anti semitism. If anything, Europe has the longest history of persecuting the Jews.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:36:23.4950303Z
@tajshar you are basing your entire Argent off of a freaking sterotype.
TBR says2015-09-12T19:37:11.1386519Z
I just spent 5 minutes of in depth research with an excellent source ( wikipedia - that is all this nonsense deserves ) regarding the Sunni / Shia split. ~1,300 years. ~5.5x longer than the US has existed. Yup, the religion is more to blame than the US.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:37:19.3288619Z
Corection. *argument
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:39:46.6789614Z
Uther, what are you blabbering about? Do you think this whole Israel issue would even be here, if all those muslim countries didn't hate Jews? Look at this statistic http://wikiislam.net/wiki/uploads/0/05/2011_Muslim_views_on_Christians_and_Jews.png Its not a freaking stereotype, Nobody is claiming all muslims hate Jews. Muslims on balance, hate Jews. J
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:40:21.1707825Z
@TBR Five minutes into a complex issue is not "all the research this nonsense deserves" Much of thee current issues in the MENA region are way younger than the Sunni Shia split.
tajshar2k says2015-09-12T19:43:44.3779347Z
Still not sure why you keep bringing Europe into this. But, the fact is that anti-semitism is very very popular among muslims. There's evidence for it. American Sniper was one step ahead of me, and gave sources.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:43:48.8393137Z
@TheAmericanSniper I'm sure calling my argument "nonsense" then pulling up a link with little explanation is a suffice rebuttal. Look into the issue, the Israel/Palestine conflict is about politics and nationalism. Everyone is bringing up religion as the scapegoat.
TBR says2015-09-12T19:45:38.4792603Z
@UtherPenguin - That I spent five min on it was a flippant point. I am sure you understood that. You still have not answered the question. Are you unwilling to put any blame on the religion?
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:45:38.9760197Z
@tajshar I keep bringing Europe 8n to this because Europe has a lot to do with the issue.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:48:08.9397810Z
Ok, the majority of muslim countries on that list weren't even in double digits when asked if they liked Jews. But, muslims are tolerant of Jews. Ok.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:48:13.7758120Z
@TBR The blame is on the followers of the religion. As the religion itself cannot directly act
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:50:43.7239732Z
I thought muslims liked the make the distinction that they don't like Zionists, but they like Jews? The poll doesn't specify anything about Palestine, yet the overwhelming majority hate them.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:51:24.5338348Z
I didn't actually call your argument nonsense. Why are you making things up?
TBR says2015-09-12T19:51:48.4739471Z
@UtherPenguin - Nice dodge. Are people acting on their personal (or groups) interpretation of the religion of Islam partially responsible for the violence of the M.E.? Further, is it valid to say "the religion" is somewhat to blame if they are acting on their perceived differences of the faith?
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:52:24.1418169Z
@TheAmericanSniper I am saying historical y speaking firstly. Secondly it ls important to consider why that is the case. Because I'd the religion itself was the blessing for the statistics then antisemitism would have.Much deeper roots. But once more, historically speaking, it doesn't.
tajshar2k says2015-09-12T19:53:04.7287023Z
@Utherpenguin People act based on what their faith tells them. Religious can influence their thoughts.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:54:00.9837447Z
@TheAmericansniper I am not making things up. That Isaid what you said.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:54:48.4895422Z
Where? Show me.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:55:06.8642339Z
@TBR U did not dodge the question, I answered it quote directly.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:55:50.9665647Z
Correction *quite
tajshar2k says2015-09-12T19:56:21.3561439Z
"radicalization of a handful of Muslims".? More like 15 to 25% of the population.
TBR says2015-09-12T19:56:29.2031451Z
@The_American_Sniper - The "Muslims love Jews" comes from when the Jews were part of the persecuted people of Europe (like medieval). So, vs. Getting nasty things poked up your a$$, yes the Muslims were much nicer than the Christians of Europe. For what that is worth.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T19:57:02.1979911Z
Another correction I meant *I (seriously how do I turn off autocorrect)
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:57:03.2120058Z
That was back when everybody was a douchebag
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T19:58:18.8100904Z
Now, is not the case. Lets focus on the more modern events. Muslims hate Jews. The number is far too high even consider it a stereotype. Its almost the fact.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T20:00:25.7832111Z
@TheAmericanSniper No actually, nor everyone was a douche in history. If such was the case antisemitism would have much deeper roots, which it did not, otherwise Jews would have been persecuted under the Ottomans, Umayyads, et cetera.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T20:03:47.8064349Z
@TheAnericanSniper I was asking you to explain why that was the case. You originally proposed 8t was because of the religion, while I said otherwise. It's a terrible idea to look at aNY modern political conflict while ignoring it's history.
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T20:09:23.9047538Z
@tajshar proof?
58539672 says2015-09-12T20:24:14.7879212Z
Though blaming the religion of Islam as a whole seems easy enough, the vast majority of the conflicts in the region were caused for much more secular reasons. Iran is a good example. After the US and UK succeed in their coup and instilled the new Shah. The ironic thing is that the new Shah's actually made several advancements in industry, education, and the economy during their rain. The problem started when they brutally shot peaceful protesters who were against the dictator like government and wanted a more representative system. As they protested more, the government got more brutal, and as the government got more brutal, protests turned into armed resistance. This is what started the revolution, not religion. In fact, Iran would not turn toward the radical theological nation that it is today until after the revolution already ended. The revolution was started, fought, and won for secular reasons.
TBR says2015-09-12T20:29:41.9293616Z
Ignoring that Muslims have an irrational bitterness towards the Jews is as silly as saying conflicts have nothing to do with the religion. Parse as you like, a huge percentages of Muslim dislike Jews. A good deal of fighting is religious based
UtherPenguin says2015-09-12T20:36:27.3291603Z
@TBR I am not saying that no war was ever caused by religion, or that antisemitism doesn't exist among Muslims (or any other community in that matter) I am arguing that people hugely overplay those factors
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-12T21:53:53.9281460Z
@UtherPenguin -- Uh-Oh! MSPD is joining the discussion; you know what that means...It's time for everyone to pull up a chair, sit down, kick their feet up, and prepare to learn a thing or two ;) { I truly hope everyone understood the comedic aspect of the previous statement and didn't take that line to heart}. OK, down to business now. || You cannot blame European Colonialism for the problems of the Middle East. The largest contradiction to your claim is the fact that the earliest known instance of European Colonialism was in the year 986 AD by Erik the Red; in the year 1000 AD, his son Leif Eriksson brought the first Christian Church and Christian Missionaries to Greenland which was also the first Christian Church and influence on the North American continent. This minimal relocation is touted as the first instance of European Colonialism, and even this is a bit of stretch. True European Colonialism really took off from Spain in the year 1492 with launch of 3 ships named the Santa Clara, the (currently unknown name) and the Santa Maria; today these are commonly referred to with their nicknames of the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria. These ships were led by Christopher Columbus, leading to the European colonization of the Americas. || Now why is this information important you ask? Well, strictly speaking of the Islamic religion, the split of the faith into Sunni and Shia sects happened in the year 633 AD, 353 years before Erik the Red's colonization of Greenland. The first war between Sunni and Shia was initiated in 661 AD with a rebellion against a controversial leader. The first known military massacre occurred in 680. Again, this strictly accounts for the religious divide in Islam which launched the never ending wars we still see today. This does NOT account for the forceful, military takeover of Mecca by Islamic forces in 630 AD, prior to the split or any others previously fought. So, that being said, how exactly do you blame the problems of the Middle East on a process of expansion by Europe that started 353 years AFTER the first religious civil war in the Middle East by the Sunni and Shia? Furthermore, are the Muslims not supposed to be held responsible for their own continued actions which continue to tare the region apart even today? Think about it; Europeans came to the Americas, and with a show of military force, they blasted right through the Inca Empire, eventually leaving with as much gold as they could transport, returning later to finish the job. Europeans massacred the American Indians, the Mexicans, and more; in order to gain more land, wealth and power. America's roots are literally planted in military conquest and violence. So how is it exactly that America (built by the European aggressors), in only 250 years changed from a violent, military group focused on land grabs; to THE leading nation in the known history of humanity in the field of protecting the weaker nations around the world and even defeating evil groups, seizing their lands, rebuilding it better than it was, then handing it directly back to the rightful owners without asking for as much as a thank you. Yet after THOUSANDS of years, these Muslims in the Middle East can't even come to agreement on something as simple as a border line, which in cyclical fashion, ALWAYS returns the two groups to war. So what's the difference between America and its Western Allies and Islam that one can turn the corner in the blink of an eye and the other can't seem pull its own self out of the perpetual mindset of the year 680 AD? You can't pass blame here on anyone but the Muslims over there allowing all this to continue for thousands of years.
tajshar2k says2015-09-12T22:12:20.0119074Z
Damn you always give super long posts lol :D
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T22:19:04.5614802Z
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/saudi-arabia-pledge-build-200-mosques-syrian-refugees-germany-1519298 F*ck you Saudi Arabia!
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-12T22:22:52.8577338Z
This why a issue such as helping refugees has turned into a political crisis. World leaders can't take the risk of letting radicals in the country, or their country folk will suffer.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-12T22:36:44.3590538Z
@tajshar2k -- Yup :) Have you taken a look around the world lately? If you haven't taken notice, each generation seems to be getting lazier and dumber than the last. I figure I can at least provide the data here in the hopes that somebody picks up on it and is intrigued enough to begin their own research.
stargate says2015-09-12T22:38:26.4280773Z
Well yes and no, some are getting dumber but not all.
stargate says2015-09-12T22:38:46.0998034Z
Though I do worry.....
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-12T22:50:48.8056361Z
@stargate -- Maybe with surface knowledge you can squeeze a few out of the world as a whole. But let's think in historical terms. Over 4,000 years ago, the ancient Egyptians built pyramid after pyramid, complex after complex, tombs upon tombs. Today, 4,000 years later, not only do we lack the skills and knowledge to recreate these structures, but we have absolutely no idea how THEY did it...And so perfectly. Ancient Katanas folded more times by hand than we can today with any machine on the planet. Mayans creating the second most accurate calendar and clock in the world today simply by mapping the skies; their time pieces came out so accurate, they are almost in perfectly alignment with the world's most accurate clock which kept on time by networks of computers, servers, satellites, and constant overview of a very small team of men. Just in these examples alone, there is a level of mathematics, science, astronomy, and more that we today have trouble processing with the most powerful computers available to us.
stargate says2015-09-12T23:27:04.8323849Z
True, but think about this we can destroy the world now in less then a week. We have been to the moon, we have fought two gobal wars three if you count the seven year war. We have jets, aircraft carries, battleships. Yes we have messed up and forgotten sometimes. But we make new thing that are bigger and better.
TBR says2015-09-12T23:29:42.9393984Z
@MakeSensePeopleDont - The polls have terrible formatting options. I... Well usually am overly verbose, but this site is making me try to break things down further. Pay out points in smaller chunks (in the polls at least). Point being, just post the block of text in several chunks. Even just wait to sprinkle the points throughout the thread. More people will actually read what you have to say.
TBR says2015-09-12T23:31:25.2760544Z
@The_American_Sniper - F**k yea. When I read that I was blown-over. The number of ways that "contribution" sucks... I run out of fingers counting. Screw them!
TBR says2015-09-12T23:36:07.0450606Z
@MakeSensePeopleDont - I think you are way underestimating how cool atomic clocks are. I have no problem giving props to the Mayan's for the calendar, don't diss where we really are in technology. We stand on the shoulders of giants. We owe lots to all of the very intelligent men and women before us. We live today, like yesterday, building on what came before.
tajshar2k says2015-09-12T23:44:29.8544946Z
Wow, Saudi Arabia you piece of sh*t...
triangle.128k says2015-09-12T23:54:41.5474048Z
Allahu ackbar!
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-13T00:03:20.4934846Z
@stargate -- According to the historical documents of our ancestors, they traveled all over the galaxy and universe: puts our little trip to the moon to shame. We may have fought 2 world wars, but our ancestors fought many more wars that spanned the globe which were much more violent and bloody; these may have been a number of completely separate wars that each other never even knew bout, but it was global my friend. Yes, we do have planes, bombs, missiles, battleships, satellites, etc. which quickly chunk out surface vegetation and maybe leave a crater in the ground a few feet deep; but they had more powerful and dangerous weapons and tactics. Instead of firing off a couple 6 story tall, $250 million missiles from 2,500 miles away which end up killing only 1 or 2 enemies or even just knocking down a building, they used swords, axes, volleys of arrows that black out the sun, catapults, diseases, starvation, and many other weapons and tactics designed specifically to not only kill off as many soldiers as quickly as possible; but were also designed and implemented to kill off or torture as many civilians as possible. Man causing self-extinction is a MUCH more realistic threat than man destroying the world. Also, what about all those weapons that historical and religious writings speak of? Like that horn the (I believe) Jews blew which created a sound wave so powerful that it instantly crumbled a defensive wall that was regarded as impenetrable? Sounds pretty powerful to me. We don't make anything that is bigger and better than they did, we can't even make things today that will outlive products from the 1950s. There isn't a man-made, modern structure on the planet that will stand longer than the pyramids around the world.
TBR says2015-09-13T00:08:41.2227873Z
@MakeSensePeopleDont - ridiculous. Voyager will last longer than the pyramids of giza. Just because we "don't make cars like we useta" does not mean we have stepped backwards.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-13T00:57:27.8147297Z
@TBR -- Oh no, I do NOT underestimate the coolness factor of atomic clocks; the most accurate in the world is estimated to not gain or lose a single second for the next 15 billion years. But these are literally run by multiple, MULTIPLE super computers around the world. The Mayans created their clock and calendar only by hand, Don't diss where we are in technology? Why not? Take a seriously look into our tech and where we are going with it; do you really think we are better off where we are heading as opposed to where we have come from? Now we need to be honest here'; we have NEVER learned from our ancestors and our history. Mankind keeps making the same exact mistakes, resulting in the same exact repetitive cycles of failure from the individual level all the way to the national level. Let's build our own real life model of America today: history, as well as the present, have and do show us that Socialism is a complete failure of a political ideology and only serves to quickly destroy the nation-state employing it. This has been proven, hands down, every single time. So, assuming we ARE in fact learning and building from history, I am driven to ask the obvious: Why are American politicians gradually migrating our capitalist society to a Socialist society?
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-13T01:06:34.6841111Z
@TBR -- Come on man, I just spent time last night standing up for you and now you're talking nonsense to me. If you place any object, no matter it's composition, in the complete vacuum of space, shipped out to interstellar space where the only collisions it will experience is on a micron level, and that object will remain intact for hundreds of thousands, even millions of years; I could make a loaf of bread fly through interstellar space and increase it's lifespan from 6 months on Earth to hundreds of thousands of years. This is like comparing the nutritional value of apples to the CV Joints on your car, the comparison holds no merit and makes no sense.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-13T08:37:56.6635539Z
@ladiesman -- So your justification for calling America the terror group is the fact that Usama Bin Laden came to our house, killing over 3,000 innocent civilians in the span of a handful of minutes, then had the audacity to stand in front of a camera calling AMERICA the terrorists while plotting out his next targets on U.S. soil; these unspeakable and cowardly acts were met with the full force of the U.S. military with the goal of disabling Al Qaeda's ability to perform further attacks on U.S. targets domestically or internationally. When this force came down upon these cowardly terrorists like Thor's Hammer on steroids, they show the world just how cowardly they are by using their own civilians and villages as human shields. Then when this tactic did not produce the results they expected, these cowards just started walking into their own villages, dragging their own civilians out of their houses, murdering the men, raping the women, selling the young females into sex slave trades, and forcing the young men into serving Al Qaeda and killing American troops. This is your justification? Come on man.
Bob13 says2015-09-13T18:16:33.7164279Z
Neither.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-13T18:56:37.0214773Z
@biggest_pro_going -- Sooooooo you are asserting that America's military involvement within the Middle East since the year 2001 has caused the terrorist, violent and caveman like cultural among the natives within the Middle East? Well why not go to the extreme here and give you a massive Vegas Handicap saying [...]since America became a nation in 1776[...]. This handicap still makes no sense as this Islamic terrorist culture and extreme violence has been there since about the year 650 AD, over 1,100 years before America even existed. So how is it even remotely possible for America to be the reason for the disgusting culture that has been in development, well lacking development to be honest, since the 7th century?
biggest_pro_going says2015-09-13T20:11:43.5097396Z
Soviet invasion of Afghanistan- Taliban created by the US. 1st and 2nd gulf war- ISIS is created by the USA due to the fact Iraq and Syria were a war zone. ISIS spread to Libya thanks to the US invading it and now its a black hole with loads of different terrorist groups fighting for it. Refuges are coming in there 1000s to Europe from Libya and Syria (both bombed by the US). This is a list of troubles created by the US.
58539672 says2015-09-13T20:17:42.3480018Z
@biggest_pro_going You still haven't refuted his point yet.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-13T20:39:03.6889944Z
@Biggest_Pro_Going -- Wow...Every time I think I have seen the bottom of the "stupid person" barrel, out pops a magical creature like yourself, displaying such an embarrassing level of stupidity the Sun stops heating...........LOL, I had an hilarious visual there in my head, but all of a sudden I can't remember it. DANG IT!!! See, your stupidity is rubbing off; get back in your barrel!
stargate says2015-09-13T20:43:20.6899840Z
They never did travel the galaxy, also the horn thing is not real. I do notwatch the show ancient aliens though you must do by your augments.
TBR says2015-09-13T20:53:24.0042532Z
Ok, take it a step at a time. What was the American involvement with the mujahideen forces?
briantheliberal says2015-09-13T21:20:04.2503882Z
People who solely blame Islam for the shtstorm that is the Middle East need to brush up on their history and stop letting their anti-Islam bias inhibit their ability to think critically. Islam existed in the Middle East for centuries, but it wasn't until recently that many of these issues arose when they started interacting more with modern, non-Muslim nations.
The_American_Sniper says2015-09-13T21:33:07.2974077Z
I don't think any of us soley blame Islam, but rather it's a major reason.
TBR says2015-09-13T21:37:50.2530168Z
Brian, I voted Islam, and have spent the entire thread talking about western interference.
Haroush says2015-09-13T21:39:16.1773723Z
Imagine that! The first person TBR sucks up to is Brian.. What a surprise..
TBR says2015-09-13T21:42:44.5701632Z
How do you read that as sucking up. Suck my...
tajshar2k says2015-09-13T21:43:27.4325829Z
Oh no...
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-14T01:17:30.9013123Z
@TBR -- (Here's the end to your last post :) ) VIKKI -- VIKKI -- VIKKI -- radio remix
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-14T01:32:19.4830083Z
@stargate -- No, never watched that show but in researching the history of religion throughout the world, I have heard of that show and have added ancient alien theology to my studies. I have also studied "The Cargo Cults" of the South Pacific; a modern day representation PROVING that Ancient Alien Theology could actually be, more likely than not, truth. You should do a quick search on "The Cargo Cults" and see for yourself through photo, video and audio evidence, just how eerily similar this modern day culture who is still still living and practicing this faith today is to our major religions and their "stories". From there, check out the Jewish religion including their stories, teachings and even the Torah itself. Judaism is a solid place to start with the three large religions as they work extremely hard to keep the teachings as they were recorded through time; avoiding edits to their texts and teachings as to keep their faith from spiraling into rabbit-hole
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-14T01:43:05.2803480Z
@stargate -- You state "They did not travel the galaxy, and the horn thing is not real." Really? Seems kind of odd to me that ancient tribes from around the planet and across different centuries who had no possible way of interacting with each other, have story upon story describing these actions and countless others; many of which are mirror images of each other. And the most intriguing part is, out of the BILLIONS of visible stars in the sky each night, our ancestors have this inexplicable ability to identify the same exact stars, galaxies, and constellations as the homes of the Gods. Best part of it is that some of these societies had no possible was of even knowing these galaxies existed, as they lived on a section of the planet that was never rotated to an angle in which it could be seen .
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-14T02:34:43.6563482Z
@briantheliberal -- At the end of your comment, you identified the root of the problem with these Radical Islamic Terrorists when you state their interaction with modern non-Muslim societies as a fuse lit on the stick of dynamite. So, let me take you back in history to the roots of Judeo-Christian AND Islamic religions. It starts with these groups being a single faith called Abrahamic Religions. As disagreements grew, this religion broke apart, forming Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Soon after, following the death of the Prophet Muhammad in 632 AD, the Sunni choose Abu Bakr as caliph, which the Shia oppose. Bakr is assassinated in 656 AD leading to the Shia selection of Ali being the new caliph. Sunni accuse Shia of murder, Shia accuse Sunni's of lies; this quickly morphs into each side accusing the other of following a false profit and false history, etc., etc. until in 661 AD when Ali was assassinated which increased anger between the two sides; the back and forth gets worse each day until finally, this leads to the first Sunni Shia Civil War in 680 AD. Everything you see ISIS and radical Islamic Terrorists doing today that is destroying the Middle East, began right here, at this very time in 680 AD during a civil war within Islam which is still prevalent today. Since 680 AD, these two sects of Islam have gone back and forth playing who can be the most violent, cultivating the violence and sadistic terrorist behavior throughout the centuries, all the way up to what we have today. Yes there were interactions and even wars between the Western World and Islam, but these were not the root cause. But speaking of which, the first clash between Europe and Islam started in 624 AD when on Muhammad's orders, all Jews were either banished or executed as they refused to refer to Muhammad as a prophet and the Jews refusal to renounce Judaism and take up Islam as their faith. || Man, does that not sound oddly familiar? Now where have I heard that before? Hhhmmmmmm. This started the Muslim military march through Africa and to parts of Europe, giving all people they come across or fight in battle, the choice between renouncing their false God(s) and accept the Islamic faith as the one true faith; if you refuse to comply, just as they still do to this day, they would torture, rape, and kill you and your family. This continued thorough to the year 732 AD when Islam decided they were ready to attack France, and convert everyone to Islam or be executed. Islam was beat back. So, giving new evidence on top of my previously mentioned evidence, Please explain how the Western World is the cause. Again, all I see is a group unable to grow up. I mean seriously, what EXACTLY should France have done when the Muslims attacked their country? Walk out and just hand it over with a smile? Come on man.
Renegader says2015-09-14T03:30:36.9779286Z
If you do not think that religion is the primary cause of violence in the region then it is YOU who needs a serious history lesson. Obviously intervention was a large factor, especially with the magic marker division of territories, and you already know my disdain of misguided intervention. Religion has tore the region apart since it's creation, with different sects of Islam warring among each other, and also with Christians and Jews. Hypothetically, if the region developed under a secular humanist worldview, many of these problems would never exist (including some of those which attracted the eye of the interventionist.) Also, as many people pointed out earlier, this poll only includes the United States as the intervening party.
Wylted says2015-09-14T04:09:14.1535078Z
You didn't give the Jews as an option, so I went with the USA.
58539672 says2015-09-14T04:25:08.4051360Z
Then again, their is also the fact that the region has experienced war and fighting long before the introduction of Islam. They are the cradle of civilization. Empires and Kingdoms have been fight and committing atrocities in the middle east before civilization ever reached the rest of the world.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-14T07:52:29.0374052Z
@Renegader -- First, who are you talking to? You never listed the person you are attempting to address. Second, people....Always with the finger pointing , always with the blaming of everyone else, always going on and on about how the Jews and the Christians did this and that; how rich people ruined the world, how McDonalds made me fat and not my lack of exercise and proper diet, how guns kill people and how it has noting to do with the operator, how law enforcement blah blah blah, and when all else fails, just pull out the ol' super sized wrecking ball and start spam smashing the big "White people did it" or "Europeans did it" buttons. In this topic alone, I have noted on a couple of occasions, historical information showing that responsibility for the region and what it is socially today belongs strictly to the inhabitants, yet all I keep hearing is how someone else broke it. You want to blame everything on how the borders shifted just slightly? Well what happened over there pre-Islam? Wanna see? Here you go :) || http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html || Ejnjoy
stargate says2015-09-14T10:33:47.0890672Z
Listen to yourself for a second right now you sound insane. Look back then there where still ways to travel around the world, they traveled a lot. Now word back then can travel fast depending on what it was. This dose not mean that they travel from outerspace or that we got help from aliens. No one belives that and I kean no one expect that 1% of crazy people.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-14T12:07:40.2531036Z
@stargate -- So, if I deciphered your statement properly, you assert that only 1% of people believes that these stories littering every corner of the planet and spanning as far back in time as we find intelligent human life. You also assert that this 1% of people are just crazy people. || Well, how about I provide a short list of individuals throughout history that were labelled as crazy, insane, etc.? Here you go, the parenthesis after each name consists of the idea or invention the scientists were each called crazy and insane over: Arrhenius (ion chemistry) || . Alfven, Hans (galaxy-scale plasma dynamics) || . Baird, John L. (television camera) || . Bakker, Robert (fast, warm-blooded dinosaurs) || . Bardeen & Brattain (transistor) || . Bretz J Harlen (ice age geology) || . Chandrasekhar, Subrahmanyan (black holes in 1930) || . Chladni, Ernst (meteorites in 1800) || . Crick & Watson (DNA) || . Doppler (optical Doppler effect) || . AE Douglass (tree-ring dating) || . Folk, Robert L. (existence and importance of nanobacteria) || . Galvani (bioelectricity) || . Harvey, William (circulation of blood, 1628) || . Krebs (ATP energy, Krebs cycle) || . Galileo (supported the Copernican viewpoint) || . Gauss, Karl F. (nonEuclidean geometery) || . Binning/Roher/Gimzewski (scanning-tunneling microscope) || . Goddard, Robert (rocket-powered space ships) || . Goethe (Land color theory) || . Gold, Thomas (deep non-biological petroleum deposits) || . Gold, Thomas (deep mine bacteria) || . Lister, J (sterilizing) || . Lovelock, James (Gaia theory) || . Maiman, T (Laser) || . Margulis, Lynn (endosymbiotic organelles) || . Mayer, Julius R. (The Law of Conservation of Energy) || . Marshall, B (ulcers caused by bacteria, helicobacter pylori) || . McClintlock, Barbara (mobile genetic elements, "jumping genes", transposons) || . Newlands, J. (pre-Mendeleev periodic table) || . Nott, J. C. (mosquitos xmit Yellow Fever) || . Nottebohm, F. (neurogenesis: brains can grow neurons) || . Ohm, George S. (Ohm's Law) || . Ovshinsky, Stanford R. (amorphous semiconductor devices) || . Parker, Eugene (existence of a 'solar wind') || . Pasteur, Louis (germ theory of disease) || . Prusiner, Stanley (existence of prions, 1982) || . Rous, Peyton (viruses cause cancer) || . Semmelweis, I. (surgeons wash hands, puerperal fever ) || . Shechtman, Dan (quasicrystals) || . Steen-McIntyre, Virginia (southwest US indians villiage , 300,000BC) || . Tesla, Nikola (Earth electrical resonance, "Schumann" resonance) || . Tesla, Nikola (brushless AC motor) || . J H van't Hoff (molecules are 3D) || . Warren, Warren S (flaw in MRI theory) || . Wegener, Alfred (continental drift) || . Wright, Wilbur & Orville (flying machines) || . Zwicky, Fritz (existence of dark matter, 1933) || . Zweig, George (quark theory) || . || . Crackpots, insane, losing it, crazy, nobody will ever listen to him again...These are all things that were said about every brilliant scientist and discovery on that list. Even Albert Einstein was laughed off stage with his ingenious ideas simply because the community was too closed-minded to see what he saw; they were too busy laughing and poking fun to see how the puzzle fits together the way he has. Just look at the scientific community of 10 years ago , if one of them stood up and said "Living organisms can survive within the vacuum of space for years without a problem." do you know how fast they would have been carted out of the meeting and told to leave campus and never come back. Turns out MANY forms of life on Earth are able to survive in the vacuum of space for extended periods of time. Come to think of it, didn't a bunch scientists lose their jobs, their license, get made fun of all over the news, etc.Because while they are harmless, they
stargate says2015-09-14T17:55:54.9297833Z
Look that theory is just impossible, there is no way that they could do all that. Now good day.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-14T22:41:45.9858425Z
@stargate -- What theory? I have not provided a single theory in my comments. Everything I have said is fact. It is a fact that our ancestors all over the world and from all points in human existence have documented their encounters, it is a fact that they have also documented their travels with the "people from the sky", they have also documented the help and teachings they provided. All facts....Never theory
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-14T22:45:52.0665521Z
@stargate -- Always remember this quote by J.W. Goethe -- "Men show their character in nothing more clearly than by what they think laughable." So, where does your character stand?
stargate says2015-09-14T23:10:22.6382581Z
I do not know where do you think?
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-15T03:26:12.5582357Z
@stargate -- Let me ask you this, what evidence would it take, provided by our ancestors, in order for you to believe that "the Gods came down from the stars" and interacted with them? I would also like to ask you: What, in your mind, is the difference is between our ancestors and the U.S. Government? You read in a book, see some pictures, and are told by someone that 12 people total have walked on the moon and you believe it; then you pickup a book, see some pictures, and are told by someone that our ancestors were visited by "the God's from the stars" and you say it's all lies, fiction and fantasy that a small group of crazy people alive today actually believe is true. So what's the difference?
stargate says2015-09-15T10:30:42.2064034Z
There is a difference one is says we have once walked on the moon, before the space programs. The other is saying god came down from the star and visted us. Now let me say something if they go travel to soace then why did they never wite about it? Why did they only use sworde and other weapons like that. Plus if they had that kind of technology wouldn't we see proof, or at least sings that it happened. You can believe what you want to but I see no facts and no proof it is all based upon an theory.
MakeSensePeopleDont says2015-09-15T14:33:43.0777848Z
@stargate -- There are countless paintings, writings, stories, tributes, etc. from ancient man depicting and telling of the star people, the sky people, the watchers, the Gods, etc. coming down from the stars and interacting in different ways with their people. There are even ancient tribes still alive today and still practicing the rituals of their ancestors, passing down tales of interaction; documents of some rituals even speak of doorways carved out of rock by the visitors which for some years they would use to travel around the planet or even into the sky to different worlds. There are men throughout history that drew accurate diagrams of our full 8 planet solar system including asteroid belt, even before the invention of the telescope, stating they were provided this information from visitors from the heavens. Look at all of the stories in religious texts that were said by "popular science" to be fantasy created simply to keep civil order and obedience and have now been proven to be actual real life, tangible, indisputable facts; like David and Goliath, the 10 plagues, or heck Jesus himself...All proven real. Each time someone claims extraterrestrials have done something, the critics say "You're crazy, where's your proof?" The person presents documented proof straight from ancient man and the critic responds "You're stupid, that's just some guy that was bored and painted something on a wall that he imaged one day." or "That's just a story fabricated to scare subjects of a ruler into doing everything he told them to." Finally, the researcher will end up finding indisputable, tangible, scientifically verified proof that is then studied by multiple sources to be real, true and without question, exactly what is claimed to be. Researcher brings it back to the critic and the critic says "Whatever, just because the people were real and the event happened doesn't mean it happened as you say. They probably just exaggerated the stories to make them more exciting." Scientists, engineers and researchers have proven some of the greatest "tales" in biblical stories as truth. The Israelites marching through the desert for 40 years, proven fact; Joshua leading his followers to Jericho and knocking the wall down and burning the city to the ground, proven fact. Now Joshua just conquered a strategic military fortress heavily defended by well-trained defenders using a group of every day men, and conquered it without losing a single man...How?. The Bible talks of how Joshua was told to march around Jericho 1 time per day for 6 days with 7 rams horns blowing. On the 7th day go around the city 6 times, on the 7th stop and blow horns at this specific spot, keeping horns with the ark as they sound and you will have your city. Surely enough the wall comes down as Joshua was told and he burned the city down. If everything to this point has been proven as fact, including the wall coming down, without question, what makes you think that the way the walls were brought down is all of a sudden a fantastical story? If he's going to exaggerate, he would exaggerate on more than just using 7 little rams horns to knock the wall down. So the question comes, what's the deal with the rams horns? Why march exactly 1 time a day around the wall for 6 days and not twice a day or 8 days total? Why the larger march on the 7th day? Why the insistence on keeping the ark next to the horns as they sound off? And how the heck could 7 little trumpets knock down a fortress wall? Guess what scientists are doing now...They are designing sound wave based weapons that not only hurt your ears, but even weapons that fire a burst of sound waves with controllable frequency levels with the option to knock a person on their back from the sheer force, stop or even tear apart your organs without breaking skin, and they are now even working on locating the right frequency and power range to use to...Yup, you guessed it, knock down walls. Isn't that a heck of a coincidence.

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